d20 Modern: What Would you change part II - Page 19
  1. #181
    If you need multiclassing to get an archetype, your classes are badly constructed. Classes should be archetypes by themselves. If you wish people to construct archetypes, use a point-buy system.

    Also, if the hero of Die Hard shot through himself, he wasn't bulletproof. I haven't seen that
    one, so I will say only that everyone can shoot through his own body. The question is what he could do after that.

    Additionately - thinking that Strong Hero is strong, Smart Hero intelligent etc is a mistake. Strength and Intelligence are described by abilities, not class. Class describes mostly training. There is no need to imagine the Tough Hero more or less intelligent than any other class. He certainly doesn't need intelligence to the same degree as the Smart hero - but the class itself don't have to assume low intelligence and lesser skills.

    Also, I think a generalist would prove to be quite useful in the game - as long as he doesn't have to sing. A class build on blocking bullets with his own body makes no sense. A class with ability to heal quicker and to keep going longer does.

    My suggestion for changes: The Resilience ability is right, but "once per encounter" will not do. You can say eg: "To use Resilience again you need 5 minutes of rest" or something similar.

    Will save should be higher - High or at least Medium. Hit points should be the same as for the Strong Hero. Class skills: only Athletics (Str), Firearms (Dex), Outdoorsman (Wis), Read/Write Language (None), Speak Language (None), Streetwise (Wis), Unarmed (Str) and Weapons (Str). Skill points per level - about 8 (about the same as smart hero).

    Special: when taking levels in that class you treat any skill below half character (not class) level as a class skill. That way he will know a lot of things, but not as well as the Smart Hero.

    Class feats: Get rid of damage reduction and energy resistance. Fast healing and damage reduction working only against non-lethal damage would be OK.

  2. #182
    Member
    Novice (Lvl 1)

    iwatt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Santiago, Chile
    Posts
    1,955
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    Block iwatt


    Friend+
    Quote Originally Posted by Baduin
    If you need multiclassing to get an archetype, your classes are badly constructed. Classes should be archetypes by themselves.
    That's were we part ways I'm afraid. IMO, multiclassing from a core of broad classes is better than a plethora of base classes. YMMV. Of course there's more than X archetypes, but you'll want to draw the line somewere. I think you're not seeing the whole picture: The Tough hero isn't about hoping he get's hit, it's about shrugging off hits if they do happen. I see that as different enough from the guy who hit's really really hard or the guy who's very hard to catch.

    Also, if the hero of Die Hard shot through himself, he wasn't bulletproof. I haven't seen that
    one, so I will say only that everyone can shoot through his own body. The question is what he could do after that.
    Who ever said the Tank was bullet proof? And what he did was walk out of that fight. He's just that tough

  3. #183
    Member
    Minor Trickster (Lvl 4)



    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    685
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    Block Mokona


    Friend+
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilance
    6 base classes (each based on ability score)...[that] seemed real popular with folks
    From where do you get the idea that this breakdown of classes is popular?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilance
    Also, I think you're missing how modifiable these 6 archetypes are. ...

    They're just there to do what classes SHOULD do (in my opinion): that is, provide party roles, niches that help smooth the process of creating a balanced party.
    Wizards of the Coast has clearly outlined their concept of roles for Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition. All four of those roles relate to how characters interact when dealing with opponents: Defense, Damage-dealing, Artillery/Suppression, and Leadership. I believe that Archetype relates more to flavor or concept which is distinctly separate from Role. Technically one archetype could be found filling more than one role or multiple archetypes could be played to fill the same role in the party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baduin
    If you need multiclassing to get an archetype, your classes are badly constructed.
    QFT

    Vigilance,

    Can you clarify the roles you envision? So far it sounds like you have only two roles: Combat machine vs. Skill jockey. Then within each role you have three styles each for Combat (offense, dodge, fortitude) and Skills (technician, saving throws, leadership).

    PS to all in the Tank discussion: Hit Points don't equal damage. More Hit Points mean that you "avoid" blows just as much as DR or Armor Class. Those three items are just mechanical methods to represent the same thing.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokona
    Vigilance,

    Can you clarify the roles you envision? So far it sounds like you have only two roles: Combat machine vs. Skill jockey. Then within each role you have three styles each for Combat (offense, dodge, fortitude) and Skills (technician, saving throws, leadership).
    Well, you are pretty close to the way I envision the classes.

    But I'd like to point out that class will definitely NOT be the only thing that defines your character and might not even be the most important thing. You'll also have a background (defining what your character did in the past), an occupation that covers what he does for a living now (these cover just about everything you'd find as an advanced class in d20 Modern and more, from Assassin, to Soldier, to Dancer, to Martial Arts Instructor), finally, you get a hobby, and then you can add character disadvantages onto that to flesh out your characters personality.

    Oh yeah, and you get a class too

    So that leaves classes to do what classes do best, define party roles. Although they have flavor built in, D&D classes do this too, and the D&D classes are basically "combat boy", "skill boy" and "magic boy" in various flavors.

    Still, I've said this before and people don't seem to fully grok it, so perhaps an example will help.

    As a huge Sleeper Cell fan (much more my speed that "24"), I use as my iconic character Special Agent Darwyn Al-Sayeed of the FBI, mole inside an al-Qaeda sleeper cell operating inside the United States and planning a major terrorist attack.

    We start with Background.

    Now we know from the show that Darwyn was an Army Ranger before he joined the FBI, so I set his Background as "military".

    This gives Darwyn 4 ranks each in three skills, selected from the following list: Athletics, Engineering, Firearms, Outdoorsman, Perception, Stealth, Unarmed, Vehicles and Weapons.

    It also gives Darwyn a little bit of Wealth.

    I select Athletics, Firearms and Stealth. Darwyn receives 4 free ranks in each of these skills, representing the training he received during his Army days. However, they are not added to his class skill list, because he's not currently a soldier.

    As for what he IS, we now we move to Darwyn's occupation.

    This is clearly Spy, at least for his primary occupation (we'll talk about his bit as an FBI agent in a bit).

    This adds three skills to Darwyn's class skill list: Crime, Influence and Perception. These are considered class skills regardless of class for as long as Darwyn stays in this occupation. He can leave it whenever he chooses, though this will impose some limitations on him while he transitions from one job to the next.

    But Darwyn's not changing jobs right now, he has a mission, so let's not worry about that just yet

    Darwyn's occupation also gives him 4 Improved Feats to choose. Not only can he take these feats whether or not they're on his class feat list, they work better for him than for another character, either because he uses them everyday on the job, or because he's had the benefit of special training, what have you.

    Darwyn's improved feats are: Awareness, Low Profile (this feat actually allows Darwyn to shunt his Reputation into a separate identity in its improved form), Self-Help and Sneak Attack.

    Finally, Darwyn's occupation grants him two "perks", special job bennies that can be used to grant Wealth or Reputation increases, or change the way some of Darwyn's skills work, again through special training or on the job familiarity.

    Darwyn's perks are fluid and can be changed anytime he changes occupations, but also when he advances WITHIN his occupation (gains more ranks in occupation class skills or learns an occupational improved feat).

    Now, after all this, we move to class.

    Darwyn is a committed Muslim, who is defined by his strong love of his religion. He sees the events of 911 as sparking a war within Islam, a war he is committed to winning for the side that believes Islam is a religion of peace. Darwyn is quiet, reserved but when he chooses to stand his ground he is a rock that cannot be moved.

    Because of these qualities, I choose Empath for Darwyn's first character class.

    Now Darwyn can multi-class at any time, but his FIRST class is improtant, because it determines Darwyn's core ability. Each character only gets one of these, based on the class he takes his first character level in.

    As an Empath, Darwyn gains the Resolute core ability, that allows him to add his Empath level to a saving throw once per day. If Darwyn spends an action point, he can treat a failed saving throw as a success.

    Like I said, Darwyn's faith and his love of America, combined with a strong sense of personal duty, have made him a rock.

    Now we get to Darwyn's hobby. To establish his cover identity, Darwyn actually does a long stretch in jail, where he infiltrates a prison Muslim gang with an influential religious leader (the prison librarian) who will be Darwyn's entry into the sleeper cell.

    Because of this, we decide to make Darwyn's hobby crime. He might have been a boy scout before, an elite Army Ranger turned FBI agent whose patriotism is unquestioned. But now he's been an inmate, lived with a muslim prison gang, and on the outside, spends his time in seedy locations like strip clubs and adult movie theaters to maintain his cover.

    Darwyn's hobby further expands his skill base, giving him 4 free ranks in the crime skill. Like his Background skills, this is a basic familiarity. The skill isn't added to his class skill list like his three Occupation skills (but remember one of those is Crime as long as Darwyn is a spy).

    Now we pick Darwyn's feats. We pick three of the feats from his occupation's Improved Feat list:

    Awareness- Darwyn's life depends on his ability to be a step ahead, to read situations and determine the right course of action.

    next we take Sneak Attack- as part of being a step ahead, when Darwyn has to fight, he strikes before his opponent is ready; he has to put his man down quick, before he has a chance to blow his cover (or take his life).

    Next we take Low Profile- Darwyn's Reputation as a highly decorated Army Ranger and FBI Agent whose loyalty is beyond reproach has been erased (Reputation reduced to 0 per the feat); but rather than being a man with no identity, Darwyn has become someone different- an Army Ranger who left the military because of his radical beliefs, ending up in prison.

    Lastly we take a 4th feat, not on Darwyn's occupational feat list, the general feat Moonlighting. This allows Darwyn to gain some of the benefits of a second occupation. We select Law Enforcement, in keeping with Darwyn's double life.

    As a final step, we give Darwyn some character disadvantages.

    As part of his cover, Darwyn starts seeing a single mother, Gail who he meets through the sleeper cell.

    Though she should be part of his cover, she becomes much more and her relationship with Darwyn, a man she believes to be an ex-con working as a bag boy, threatens both their lives, as some local Los Angeles police stumble onto Darwyn, who they believe to be a radical Muslim, and attempt to use her to find out information on Darwyn without going to the FBI (who they don't want to "hog" the credit for this major bust the cops think they've lucked onto).

    As Darwyn's player, I represent this state of affairs through the Dependent disadvantage, and the Secret disadvantage.

    Darwyn should discard Gail the moment she becomes a liability to his cover and not an asset but he won't. He also has a secret that he must keep from her, to prevent the sleeper cell from killing her to protect their "comrade".

    These disadvantages provide no up-front benefit.

    Instead, when they activate and make Darwyn's life even more wonderful than normal, Darwyn gets an Action Point as a reward for his trouble. This allows Darwyn to spend his action points much more freely, since he doesn't just have to wait to gain a level to recover his AP.

    Of course, with a life like Darwyn's, he needs all the AP he can get.

    Whew, I just keep talkin don't I?

    Still, I hope this demonstrates that the character generation system is a lot more than picking from 6 classes, I hope it's a system everyone who buys the book loves as much as my players have.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilance
    I disagree entirely on there being no characters in literature who want to get hit. Colossus is the character who takes hits that would level many of the X-men such as Storm or Nightcrawler. In fact, you could insert the Brick from any super hero team into that sentence, followed by two physically weaker members of the team. Goliath for Scarlet Witch, Wonder Man for Wasp, etc. Also, what is a Bodyguard/Secret Service Agent? I'd also put John McClean (I think that's his name), the lead character from the Die Hard movies in this category. His defining characteristic to me is soaking up TONS of punishment. And finally, there is the iconic pulp boxer with the iron jaw, who absorbs tremendous punishment while winning the boxing match. The character who is physically resilient and soaks up punishment is much more of a literary icon than you seem to be aware of.
    Absolutely.

    Another fine example is Marv, from Sin City. His main line is, "I can take it. Come on, get in close. I can take it."

    Oh, and I just realized that in my last comment about expanded use for skill points, what I meant to say was Action Points. Big mistake on my part.

    I want to see expanded uses for Action Points. I'm considering giving people less, but allow them to reset or continue building up between adventures.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by tinktinktinktink
    Another fine example is Marv, from Sin City. His main line is, "I can take it. Come on, get in close. I can take it."
    Yeah, as a sort of neo-pulp, Sin City is rife with characters like that. Marv is reminiscent of RE Howard's boxing hero from the "Iron Man".

    Oh, and I just realized that in my last comment about expanded use for skill points, what I meant to say was Action Points. Big mistake on my part.

    I want to see expanded uses for Action Points. I'm considering giving people less, but allow them to reset or continue building up between adventures.
    Well, I have beefed up AP, and I've also got multiple ways of recovering them without gaining a level.

    When your character disadvantages activate, you get an action point. If you have a contact (through your Reputation), the GM can also put that contact in danger, and if you go to his aid, you get an AP.

    One of my personal problems with AP, since they activated class abilities and feats (and I've stuck with that), was that players hoarded them like crazy.

    So I've laid out at least three ways, besides levelling, for you to recover AP.

  7. #187
    I like that you're using drawbacks as a method of regaining action points remniscent of Mutants & Masterminds complications. It's something I've seen great success with... players who would otherwise not be interested in coming up with a backstory will at least want to have some defined complications if only to be able to get Hero Point rewards from the GM. It's a mechanic that has worked extremely well for my group.

  8. #188
    Yeah, this disadvantage system is one I've used many times, but in previous incarnations disadvantages actually gave XP.

    I liked that system, but seeing how Virtues and Vices work in True 20 got me thinking about using AP as a reward.

  9. #189
    I'm going to be on the next episode of Accidental Survivors talking about Modern 2.0

  10. #190
    Member
    Novice (Lvl 1)

    Roudi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,048
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    Block Roudi


    Friend+
    WORD!

    I'll be looking forward to that.

+ Log in or register to post
Page 19 of 26 FirstFirst ... 91011121314151617181920212223242526 LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Similar Threads

  1. Storms of Change OOC Part 4
    By silentspace in forum Talking the Talk
    Replies: 119
    Last Post: Friday, 26th May, 2006, 09:49 PM
  2. Storms of Change IC Part 4
    By silentspace in forum Playing the Game
    Replies: 521
    Last Post: Friday, 9th September, 2005, 02:21 PM
  3. Storms of Change OOC Part 3
    By silentspace in forum Talking the Talk
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: Tuesday, 28th September, 2004, 05:13 PM
  4. Storms of Change, Part 3
    By silentspace in forum Playing the Game
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: Thursday, 23rd September, 2004, 07:58 AM
  5. Storms of Change, Part 2
    By silentspace in forum Playing the Game
    Replies: 554
    Last Post: Friday, 18th June, 2004, 12:24 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •