Vanilla Essence: 1E Demographics and the Implied Setting

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Sepulchrave II said:
But there will always come a point where a PC rogue can outsneak a town guard, it's just a question of when.

In the kind of low magic vanilla I'm suggesting, a 5th-level rogue is not a common, low level occurrence - he is literally a 1 in 12,800 character.
But this is not SimDungeon. What works at the table has to be considered, unless this is a purely on-paper exercise, like so many oWoD discussions used to be.

That fifth level rogue will show up early in any campaign, at which point, he might as well have a wand of suggestion where no one is able to beat his saving throw. That's fun for an adventure or two, but very quickly, that becomes very, very boring.

I would push the "guaranteed success" threshold in a campaign much closer to name level.
 

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Quasqueton

First Post
Hommlet, from The Village of Hommlet by Gary Gygax, for AD&D1

Total population: 166 (not counting young children)

0 level = 146

1st level = 1
2nd level = 5
3rd level = 4
4th level = 3
5th level = 1
6th level = 2 - cleric, fighter
7th level = 2 - druid, assassin
8th level = 1 - magic-user
9th level = 0
10th level = 1 - thief

12% of the arms-bearing-age population is above 0 level.

[The amount of treasure and magic items would shock you. I'm truly bewildered looking at the list and total.]

I'm considering adding up The Keep, Orlane, Restenford, and Garroten also.

Quasqueton

Edit: I just added up all the gold piece value of monetary "treasure" in Hommlet -- 134,324gp total value. Yes, that's one hundred thirty-four thousand, three hundred twenty-four gold pieces total value! This is not counting magic items value.
 
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Quasqueton

First Post
Restenford, from The Secret of Bone Hill by Lenard Lakofka, for AD&D1

Total population: 173 (not counting young children)

0 level = 114

1st level = 23
2nd level = 17
3rd level = 9
4th level = 5
5th level = 1
6th level = 1 - cleric
7th level = 2 - fighter, druid
8th level = 0
9th level = 1 - magic-user
10th level = 0

34% of the arms-bearing-age population is above 0 level.

Quasqueton
 
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Doug McCrae

Legend
Excellent, Quasq, as always. Old school power creep.

It's hard for a DM to stick to Sepulchrave's numbers because he finds he continually needs new challenges for the PCs.
 

Quasqueton said:
The amount of treasure and magic items would shock you. I'm truly bewildered looking at the list and total.
:D It's funny, I was thinking of your analyses of 1E modules earlier - I've read some of them before. They were truly out of whack with the guidelines in the 1E DMG: I remember clearly the amount of strikethroughs that exist in my copy of Keep on the Borderlands. With a few exceptions, I didn't generally use modules (although B2, S4 and GDQ saw a lot of recycling).

But like I say, I've been pretty selective about the 1E sources I've referenced.

Doug McCrae said:
It's hard for a DM to stick to Sepulchrave's numbers because he finds he continually needs new challenges for the PCs.

It's really tough. Resisting the urge of power creep has always been a losing battle for me.

For me, part of it is also that the PCs exist in a bubble - a kind of discontinuity, around which the normal campaign reality can be expected to warp, and then spring back into its normal shape after the PCs have passed through it.
 
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Remathilis

Legend
It really is an excellent analysis, good job.

One of the biggest changes you cite, but its not really given proper attention, is the removal of name level. In all older D&D, 9th-11th level was special in the same way epic level is now special. This was due to the length of time required to gain that much XP and changing face of the challenges faced (first orcs, then giants, now demons).

A while back I remember a thread/poll asking how many people got to 20th level before 3e. It was surprisingly few. I know it took 11 years (off and on) to get to 16th as a thief in 2e. It was not uncommon for games to end at 9th and the dynamic shift in gaming. Hence, a lower-level populace seemed better suited to the game. Thanks to 3e's emphasis on faster advancment and actually using levels 11-20, the low level population seems annoyingly weak. This is doubly true for DMs who love to use human or humanoid NPC villains like evil mages or corrupt priests; if 1% of the population is PC level, I'd say half of them are evil mages, if any campaign is to be believed. :)

3e's demographics are a response to a couple of fundamental questions...

1.) In a world of animated dead, crushing golems, powerful intelligent swords, and cursed rings, who makes all this stuff?
2.) Where were that PC (my best friend who just rolled up as a new character) before he joined our group?
3.) If guards kill orc raiders for years on end, don't they get the same Xp as I do?
4.) "Don't worry, I can steal every last coin from the mayor's vault. I'm 6th level, what can they possibly do to me?"

Lastly, if the current demographics seem often like a superhero comic (X-men in particular, aren't there mutants who have non-crazy powers and fetishes for skintight latex?), then 1e D&D can be compared to Wuxia (rent Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon). There are a finite amount of powerful kung-fu masters in the area, they all know who each other are, and they are constantly doing crazing things (like flying) while fighting each other in spectacular battles while normal people either watch in awe or are mowed down like mooks. When you limit the amount of advancement a group can make, you make them special. You also make them notorious. If Lord Bragg the Anti-Paladin is the most powerful warrior in Helmhome, you better bet a PC knows of him, will find him, and want to kill him. Like Immortals in Highlander, they'd be drawn to each other as the only people who could seriously challenge each other. That creates its own unique feel not simply stated in the DMG, but implied none-the-less by the analysis.

All that said, I applaud you on your article. Good job.
 

Sanguinemetaldawn

First Post
Quasqueton said:
Hommlet, from The Village of Hommlet by Gary Gygax, for AD&D1...

Hommlet is a very poor choice for an example because of its unique circumstances.
Those circumstances being *spoilers* The battle of Emridy Meadows in the recent past and its function as a watch station on the Temple.
 


SWBaxter

First Post
Sanguinemetaldawn said:
Hommlet is a very poor choice for an example because of its unique circumstances.

Fair enough, but chances are most places an intrepid band of adventurers goes will exhibit some kind of unique circumstances, that being what draws them there in the first place. That makes the demographics outlined in the OP of only academic interest, as the PCs will generally see many more high level folks than the demographic analysis implies. Since the same idea can be applied in 3E (and has been - see Ptolus, for example), the idea that this is some kind of difference between editions is also on shaky ground. I suspect it's much more likely to be a difference in DMing style that transcends editions.
 


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