ethandrew said:
I think I've seen a couple games with the [Mature] tag on them over on the Playing the Game board, so I definitely think it's feasible to do that here on EN World.
I have a few questions, or maybe just one: Are we limited to what races we can choose? Any LA? I'm feeling a pull to Master of the Unseen Hand, but I'm not going to set that in stone quite yet. How soon are you looking to start this off?
I hope so. If it becomes a problem we'll have to deal with it when it comes up, I'm willing to adapt to the circumstances.
Somewhat limited. I'd like to keep most of the group human, because it fits with my concept of the setting and because I find that human characters can more realistically reflect human emotions. Human characters are less stereotypical and more adaptable than most fictional races and their adaptability have helped the human race survive while many other races have been driven to extinction or close enough.
Still, the world is quite diverse and there may be all kinds of sapient creatures that may be acceptable pc-races. Goblins are quite plentiful, the orcs haven't had to change their way of life very much even after their demonic subjugation. The gnomes are have all been exterminated, and the halflings have seen the wrong end of their own cookpots. Elves and Dwarves have either been killed or driven away to a handful of fortified and besieged enclaves, the Duergar have become the most common variety of Dwarf and the Drow never existed on this world in the first place. Anything weirder may be ok too, if it seems cool enough to me
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We could start next weekend, if I've got enough finished characters by then.
Jemal said:
Well, how about we assume it's OK until someone tells us otherwise... I've read the EnWorld terms (though not recently), and unless you have 'on-screen' stuff of an 18A or higher nature (nudity/sex/etc), I think it'll be good.
On that note, Greyguard is basically a Paladin prestige class built for paladins who like to get their hands dirty. I think it would fit in perfectly with this type of setting. It's got all the Pally abilities(Except their 'smite Evil' slowly evolves into "Smite people you don't like"). They basically justify doing stuff "For the greater Good". They don't run into the moral quandries most Pallys do.. If the badguy is wearing baby armour, they don't go "OH NO, I can't kill babies!" THey go "Hey, the kids're gonna die anyways if I don't stop that jerk. SMITE HO!"
It's in Complete Scoundrel.
They can still loose their abilities.. it's just harder, and the higher level they get, the harder it is. By lvl 10, they can get away with anything so long as they truley believe it's for a good cause. (Leading back to your 'good intentions' thing).
At lvl 13, the class levels would probably look something like Human Rogue3/Pal2/GrayGuard8
It could work. I know you're a good enough player to pull it off. Just keep in mind that he'll have to accept that many of his actions, though done for his idea of the greater good, will have evil consequences. He may still be able to make a difference in the world, some evils are lesser than others, but even his victories may turn bitter in the end.
Souls are a currency in the world (along with gold and silver). Souls are the greatest source of wealth and power. Souls can and usually does substitute for xp as spell components and the creation of magic items. That, and the consequences of that, may be hard to accept for a good aligned character.
Caros said:
Heh, I'd love to join in on this provided a couple of things. Probably won't be posting a concept till tomorrow (Don't have one in mind at the moment.) And won't have a character up till tuesday at the earliest (Days off don't start till then and I'm on day 15 of 17, don't expect much right now hehe.)
That said, I am sort of a goody two shoes at heart. I've always found difficulty playing truely evil characters. I'd like to try playing a goodish character, sort of the moral center of the group. If working for the 'Lords' he'd probably be the type that gets smacked around a lot for his mistakes, gets ridiculed for taking the hard way, but who they ultimately keep around since he is proficient and just skims the line of "too much trouble"
Just a thought give me opinions and all that =)
Welcome Caros.
Tuesday is fine, everything before saturday works too.
Demons, I imagine, generally tend to be quite tolerant. They hate and distrust everyone equally and therefore have no choice but to work with people they loathe. As long as you are useful they'll take advantage of you and if you become a liability...
The problem with the good aligned is that there is not always a good path open to them. I want the PCs to be proactive and a good character can, perhaps, cause the game to slow down because the options available seem less attractive to them than they do to neutral or evil characters. It depends a lot on the player, but if you want to save the world you'll have to wait until the game reaches epic levels and even then evil will still be just plain easier.
In most games Good is an easier choice than Evil. Good characters can trust their similarily aligned allies and their enemies will be plagued by infighting. Good have just as powerful game-features open to them, if not more so. Good is easy, but by being easy it becomes meaningless. People who only act in the way that is most convenient are not good, and yet that is what most characters do in most games because Good deeds are rewarded and Evil ones are punished. That is a good lesson for children, a little white lie, but it is not really the way the world works. Evil is the path of convenience. Heroism can never be easy.
Just my thoughts
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Autumn said:
This sounds great to me. Lots of thought has obviously gone into the idea, and I've always been drawn to a style of play that includes insoluble moral messes and general nastiness. I'd love to get on board.
I'm drawn towards the idea of playing a Bard in a setting like this. A wandering chancer who's so far managed to keep just about above water by playing the right games with the right people at the right times, but who is always on the edge of going too far and coming to a sticky end. Also probably not, in the end, a bad person. Perhaps driven to try as far as possible to bring a little light into people's lives, but forced to make a lot of bad compromises in order to carry on with that work.
I'll think more on that and come up with some expanded ideas tomorrow.
Thanks and Welcome
I see that most of you want to play heroic characters who are not afraid to get their hands dirty but like to keep their hearts clean, people used to being able to trust noone finding in eachothers a common ground.
![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
But I suspect that not all the PCs will be completely trustworthy. If this increases group-cohesion and effectiveness it could even be a good reason for the Lords to keep you around.
Gli'jar said:
My class finals are next week so I am definitely interested in getting into a game such as this. I see what I can come up with for concepts. Sources are limited to SRD, PH1 and DMG? No Complete series unless you approve correct? Currently I am thinking wizard/alienist or master specialist line if ok'd.
The demons were arrogant in their belief that they had been the only ones to pierce the veil and offer whisper of power...
Welcome Gli'jar.
That would be ok, but you'll have to show me the classes, write up their class features for me. If they are not absurdly overpowered or just plain feel wrong for the game (like the exalted classes) I will approve them. It's the same for spells and items, so to spare yourself too much work I advise you to keep mainly to the core materials.
The Alienist, as far as I recall the class, seems like a good fit. The gods raised their walls to protect the world from the multiverse, knowing little of the beings who lurk beyond reality... There may be some links to the Rotting God, and others to some of the less sane of the Lords like the Trembling One, Ubilith, the Creeper or the Lady of Flowers.
Shayuri said:
Arr...some more detail on creation guidelines would be useful. Like...ECL races okay? Templates? Non-core classes or PrC's (with corresponding writeups, of course).
I'm considering a monk...or a warlock...or a sorceror...maybe a soulknife...
Hee.
Oh, also...standard wealth? Spending restrictions?
ECL races are ok, generally. But no celestials, half or whole, no fiends, likewise, (The Lords have no lack of fiendish servitors, but there are some places that fiends cannot go and some things they are not suited for, fortunately for humanity.) but tieflings are ok. No antrophomorphic Baleen Whales or furries or silly things like that. Undead are fine, lishdom is something many mortal spellcasters strive for since their souls will then be safe (or at least less damned than they would otherwise be). Lycantropes, Gnolls, pretty much anything is ok, but I'd like to keep the group in general humanocentric.
Wealth, the normal starting wealth for level 13 (I'll have to look it up, doesn't seem to be in the SRD) with no spending restrictions. You can buy immovable rods or glowstones to your hearts content, you can even spend it all on hirelings (but you shouldn't expect your employees to be particularly loyal to you), it's up to you.
Voda Vosa said:
Are all places filled? It seems so so so interesting
I love playing evil characters, and I found the warlock, to be an extraordinary character for that roll. So if I'm to play, I will choose a warlock
Thanks Voda Vosa
No places are filled yet, so you're still welcome. Jemal is my DM in another game so I'd be silly to turn him down for this one and I know a couple of the other interested players are also excellent role-players, but in the end it all depends on my impression of yor characters. Those who don't get in right away can still come in as alternates, they will probably get to play sooner or later.
Evil characters would go well with the game. Not that the world is any kinder to you than anyone else. Most demons still see you as either a pest to be tolerated for now, as soul-food on legs, or with a very reluctant respect if you've earned it. But you may have an easier time getting ahead since you won't be held back by your sense of morality. Warlocks also derive their powers from the lower planes, IIRC, which indirectly means that they eat souls... Yeah, your character would probably find the world he lives in now preferable to the one of his father (where he would have been burned at the stake).
Jemal said:
If I read correctly, it's the campaign world that's evil, the characters themselves aren't neccesarily Evil.. in fact, I think a setting like this would be more interesting with characters trying to skirt the line and remain 'mostly good' than ones who've embraced the evil.
Good characters tend to be the ones who CHANGE things.
Also, Evil-character-filled campaigns have less life expectancy than good ones.
True the characters aren't necessarily evil, evil is optional just like good. Still, there are degrees of evil and even the most wicked of mortals could never get close to the demonic depths of evil. Any evil characters could easily be considered the lesser of two evils as far as the other members of the group are concerned. As for the matter of trust, well, there are many ways for the powers that be to pull the strings of your companions. There are many ways for evil to appear good and good to be made to appear evil. You shouldn't really trust anyone, you wouldn't really expect to find anyone you could trust anymore.
Change... Yes you could change things. Demonic society is inherently unstable, push hard enough in the right direction at the right place in the right time and you could easily make a change. That change could even be for the better. But the greatest Good, the ultimate victory against all evil, will require some near divine role-playing and strategy from your part.
Perhaps good characters have a shorter life expectancy than evil ones... Nah, that depends less on alignment and more on intelligence.
Maybe it's true that campaigns with evil characters tend to be shorter, but I think that depends a lot on DM- and player-expectations. Evil cannot be played the same way as good, evil has to be proactive and that makes it a greater challenge.
I've never DM'ed before, so my words could turn out to be worthless, but my ambition is to allow you to pursue your own agendas wether your plans are evil or good.
