The iconic elven warrior/mage

griff_goodbeard said:

I like the UA battle sorcerer. It feels like the old ODD 'elf' class to me. Blends sword and sorcery nicely.

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Agreed.

The UA Battle Sorcerer has 3/4 BAB, which, by 20th level, is only 5 points behind a full Fighter. The ability to cast in light armor (hello, mithral breastplate!) can be augmented with only one feat (Battle Caster, which means hello, mithral full plate!). Even with the reduced repertoire, there's more than enough spell slots to throw around, and even with the reduced advancement rate, the class still gets 9th level arcane spells. AND, it can choose from the entirety of the sorcerer/wizard spell list!

For an Elf Knight build, I'd go full Battle Sorcerer and take Arcane Strike and all of the Fey Heritage feats (which add DR x/cold iron and several spell-like abilities to expand the already impressive spell list). If I had to take any non-Battle Sorcerer levels, I'd take 2 or 4 levels of Fighter for the armor proficiency and bonus feats.

Olgar Shiverstone said:

Ah, but why? Mechanically better, name sounds cooler?

The links to the WOTC forums are nice -- thanks -- but are typical of the CO boards: too much mechanics stacking, not enough discussion of why some options might or might not be better or be better suited to a particular concept. I'm really not interested in maxxing BAB while still getting 9th-level spells.

I can stack classes and monkey with "builds", but that isn't my intent. I want to get an idea what people interpret as the flavor of a classic warrior mage, and then see why they think a particular set of mechanics is the best way of accomplishing that.

Discuss.

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The flavour text describes the elves as inventing them.

They get armoured spellcasting, martial weapon proficiency and good base attack bonus. They also get spells from level 1, plenty of spells per day but of a lower level than pure spellcasters of the same level can manage, chosen from a limited spell list which helps keep their flavour.

At higher levels they get more "warrior wizard" abilities, such as improved armoured spellcasting, and the ability to channel spells through their weapons.

In my mind, a classic warrior mage has a good base attack bonus progression and his caster level improves every level. Duskblade achieves this "out of the box".

My version of the Elven Bladesinger PrC, taken by an Elven Fighter 4/Bard 4, with 3 levels dipped into Druid. Aurelian Elves can use their racial weapon proficiencies without violating their druidic oaths.

No big loss avoiding the 10th level of the PrC since it's just another +1 dodge bonus and another level of spellcasting advancement; they'd be a bard 8 in spellcasting equivalence instead of bard 9 (or bard 11 if they skipped the druid levels altogether), which isn't too big a deal. They'd have the basic druidic sneakiness/ease in wilderness settings, some utilitarian druid spells, Ecomantic Blast, good fencing/swashbuckling skills, decent bardic music and bardic knowledge, and plenty of self-buffing spells from the bard spellcasting.

My default choice would be Ftr1/Wiz9/eldritch knight 10, then work from there.

Ranger instead of fighter gets skills instead of the feat, which is probably a less powerful but more elven option.

Some spellsword if you're into armour (and even if you're not, really, since that first level is "free", but that's cheezy).

Elf paragon lets you expand your skills at the cost of another spellcasting level. Probably not the powergamer's choice, but if I were going for the quintessential elven warrior-mage, I'd take it. Elf paragon/wizard might also work: you've already got the weapon proficiencies, you get light armour from elf paragon... hp and BAB will suck, but a very well-prepared wizard just might have ways of working around that.

Battle sorcerer is basically a more elegant fighter/sorcerer/eldrich knight, so it's also a good choice, but D&D elves are more wizards that sorcerers, so it's not quite ideal. A "battle wizard" class along similar lines might work.

Duskblade is a very cool class, but it's hardly even a warrior-mage. Technically, it is, of course, but it's schtick is more like the paladin's: supernaturally empowered asskicking. The whole schtick of the warrior-mage is versatility, being able to attack with the sword in one round, shocking grasp someone in the next, and use comprehend languages to decipher an ancient inscription in the third. The duskblade is missing that (IMO integral) final part.

All of the options have their ups & downs.

The best I've seen in the whole realm of 3.X products, though, is the AU/AE MageBlade- very balanced & flavorful.

Within just WotC's product line, the Battlesorcerer, WarMage and the Duskblade are all nice single-class Ftr/Warrior combos.

The Battlesorcerer has more spell flexibility, while the Duskblade is the most martial of the bunch. WarMages seem to fall somewhere in between, almost like the FRPG equivalent of SWAT- with a heavy concentration on Evocation spells, they hit hard from range and then move in.

Were I trying to build a true Elf Warrior/Arcane caster combo today, I'd probably use the Arcane Fighter alternative class feature combined with a Focused Specialist Wizard, however, can be quite nasty. Full BAB in one class coupled with casting in light armor (boostable by the Battlecaster feat), and spells/day similar to an unaltered Sorcerer thanks to the other class. Multiclass up high enough until you can partner that with Eldritch Knight or similar PrCl so you get your spells/day and your BAB synched up.

I might throw in some Elf Paragon for seasoning.

Bard. Lots of utility spells, real good archerclass, good skills for sniping... What else do you need?

Duh, I forgot the other favorite one: The druid archer. As elf you can do the swashbuckly thing with a longsword, longbows are your weapon of choice, your con penalty tells you to stay out of melee and all those wilderness stuff is right down your alley for the woodsy archer fightertype. And if the baddies annoy you enough, you pull out the big Flame Strike mofos. While your summoned monsters keep the enemies in shooting range helped by your entangle.

Sooo... rather acceptable fighting skills, skills, nature abilities, talking to animals and stuff, good archer thingy... and huge offensive blasting power. Welcome the elf fighter.

So what kind of spells & feats should the iconic elven warrior/mage choose?

Probably the ones that are on Thanee's list of essential spells...things like Sleep (very useful when engaging non-elves meleeing with elves), Magic Missile, Fireball/Lightning Bolt...various Charms/Enchantments.

Haste is pretty elven iconic... due to the old times when it cost you one year lifetime