Atanatotatos
First Post
If people like the idea, I can write some more on the pantheon i posted as a sample earlier.
Discussion - LEW 4th Edition
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Graf
Explorer
I totally think you should; I think you've tapped into a really rich vein.
I can't imagine someone coming up with a better pantheon. There is so much in that tradition that is vaguely familiar to people (creating a sense of comfort) but still new.
Swords and Sorcery's scarred lands had a greek theme and people loved it.
I would -definitely- suggest that you avoid "evil" gods.
I think that original instinct was just brilliant.
It makes the whole thing a bit silly to have Satan hanging around in the gods club sipping tea. It's better to have evil forces as being really evil, titans, primoritals, things that live in the edge of time and want to eat reality.
[sblock=One suggestion]I would consider Hadeys portfolio including merchants, taxation and commerce and also maybe games of chance and wagering.
Why? Honestly, it was the only good part of the disney movie.
But it also has a lot of positive sorts of sub-things.
- It gives him a bit more of a role in the pantheon/society. His priests are powerful and usurious but sometimes the only place you can go for a loan of coin when you need it. Not a banking system, but if you can't pay them back they may take other payment (just a story idea)
- You place coins on the eyes of the dead to pacify him/pay his boatkeeper.
- You -can- raise the dead (people usually want this option in DnD) because he'll take payment for allow for an "extension".
- It explains why people are buried with money (i.e. to pacify Hadeys )
- And why undead are used to protect tombs (Hadeys is more permissive of calling back souls for guard duty on "his" wealth)
- If you go the route of this wealth being a "down payment" on a "good space in the-land-of-the-dead" then the loss of that payment might mean (or people might fear) that the deceased would lose their cushy spot in the afterlife -- trapped tombs make more sense
Adding in wagering and chance means that he'll allow adventurers who brave the traps to keep their loot. They'll have to pay him off in the end anyway.
[/sblock]
I've got a place holder in the Imperium wiki for now but it deserves it own home (some place easier to find than a post on a 13 page thread.)
Halford
First Post
Atanatotatos: At first I wasn't too keen on your pantheon and was trying to think of alternatives, but the more I thought about it the more yours grew on me. I'd love to see a more detailed write up.
Graf: I am extremely keen on your interpretation of Hadeys - though I rather liked Disney's Hercules - as soon as I read it I thought I would love that god as a DM. Hadeys the haggler. Not exactly overtly evil, more self interested than anything else and unconcerned with morality, but true to his word - albeit a strict interpretation of said word.
Th Goblin King: Mulling it over I find that I really like the idea of two competing pantheons. Maybe we could set the major city between a number of cultures a crossroads of sort, this would enable us to have a diverse array of characters ready made tension, etc. Possibly over complicated, but interesting and worth exploring in my opinion. Maybe a Greek Pantheon and a Zoranastrian esque system? Thus a Cleric might worship both a particular deity and that dieties pantheon.
As for the poll I think a month with it being consistently bumped would be appropriate - despite the fact that the first week will undoubtedly see more votes than the remaining three. We can't make people vote, but we can at least give them as much of a chance as possible.
Graf: I am extremely keen on your interpretation of Hadeys - though I rather liked Disney's Hercules - as soon as I read it I thought I would love that god as a DM. Hadeys the haggler. Not exactly overtly evil, more self interested than anything else and unconcerned with morality, but true to his word - albeit a strict interpretation of said word.
Th Goblin King: Mulling it over I find that I really like the idea of two competing pantheons. Maybe we could set the major city between a number of cultures a crossroads of sort, this would enable us to have a diverse array of characters ready made tension, etc. Possibly over complicated, but interesting and worth exploring in my opinion. Maybe a Greek Pantheon and a Zoranastrian esque system? Thus a Cleric might worship both a particular deity and that dieties pantheon.
As for the poll I think a month with it being consistently bumped would be appropriate - despite the fact that the first week will undoubtedly see more votes than the remaining three. We can't make people vote, but we can at least give them as much of a chance as possible.
Graf
Explorer
[sblock=To my intense annoyance, given that we're finally getting going in a positive direction, I kinda had to respond to this]
This may come as a shock but I'm fairly anti-homebrew. I'd prefer to run eberron. But wizards IP policy + enthusiasm for self owned + lots of other stuff (existing LEW eberron, etc) means that's a nonstarter.
I do like story games (dogs in the vineyard, etc...) that grant players more authorial control. I'd like to see more cross polination between DnD and story games.
Heck I liked it so much I started one. Structurally, basically identical to what you want. I'm here to tell you it's both awesomely fun and, at times, a lot of work. And that's with five players.
You are planning on having this be a larger game, right?
If you're saying dnd begins and ends with Tolkien +/- a bit of greyhawk?
I'm not really sure what to say.
If you're saying most people want to play in the forgotten realms so we should make forgotten realms with the serial numbers filed off?
That's... well, I think you're selling the whole thing short, but people like what they like.
Great go post that setting and beat me in a poll.
Not gonna write it for you.
I saw a lot of games like these in high school (and college), long on idea (usually just one idea) and really short on fun for the players.
Fundamentally your proposal boils down to
Are the judges supposed to reign everyone else in while you frolic about doing whatever you like?
However much you may not the setting proposal (two now) I've worked up (which is fine, they're extreme and weird in your eyes) you're also not dealing with reality.
You should look at the characters that were proposed in Rayex's lost game. They're freaking awesome and freaking weird (especially when they're all in the same world).
And you're gonna get the same characters proposed in ANY Lew game.
What're you gonna do, turn them away because you don't like them?
-I- think that's the wrong move. They're great characters and they come with motivated and creative players.
You build the setting you want for the game you're gonna run and the players you have.
If you want to build a setting for you and five of your best friends from LEW then do it.
But you want to have the community get involved? You're going to build a tent that lets people bring some weirdness/creativity in.
I'm not really going to respond to your cracks about whether I'll be playing or not... I think they're a bit inappropriate for EnWorld.
I -am- sorry that my proposals fall so far outside the bounds of what you consider acceptable. But, however much you may loath them, they address points you should at least consider.
[/sblock]
We're gonna have (hopefully) more than a few players, a setting that works great for five or ten PCs may struggle when you get 20 or 30 running around. Especially if they're weird and unusual, which is pretty much par for the course. (Rayex's lost game is a good cross section of the sort of characters I expect people to want to play.)
With that in mind I've ginned up a second proposal (the Transitive Isles) that's radically different from the first.
(Or rather, it's basically the same, but it'll be different to people who don't separate fluff from structure).
Some highlights (the names are placeholders)
[sblock=The setting comes with it's own poll]
You will note that there is no "I hate this" option.
You can't build a setting by saying by getting a list of "everything that somebody-on-the-net doesn't like". Instead of wasting electrons grousing about how the proposal isn't what you want, propose a clear strong alternative. Try to make it flavorful, fun and interesting.
Also consider how it will work in play: "I want my character to be able to do anything with no restrictions" will put a lot of pressure on the judges and create a lot of arguments. Try to remember that you are writing for a (hopefully) a large group of players and several judges.
=== Reskining the Setting ===
* Instead of islands at sea as the fluff; I suggest re-skinning it as _________ (cities connected by magical portals, whatever)
=== Setting Overall ===
*I feel the starting area is...
*...too large
*...too small
*...around the right size
*...too restrictive
*...too open
*...strikes a good balance between permissiveness and verisimilitude
*...too/not enough ______; I suggest instead ________
* I think it should be easier/harder for characters/groups to move around because _________; I suggest _________
=== Specific elements ===
*I have concerns/doubts about <insert setting element X>; it could <insert adverse impact here> instead I suggest _________
* I realize that <insert setting element X> provides certain features _________; however I think that it <insert adverse impact here> I believe that <new setting element> would preserve the good parts of the old element while resolving my concerns.
Example: I realize that The Imperium provides certain features (It is a morally ambiguous actor in the world, and provides the opportunity for political games; however I think that it is too obviously like rome and ruins verisimilitude for be because I prefer my fantasy settings to be more like "traditional" DnD I believe that My New Proposal [link] would preserve the good parts of the old element while resolving my concerns.
=== Character Creation ===
*I like having some restrictions on starting character class/race/cultural combinations
*I'd like to have some restrictions but not these restrictions; instead I suggest ______
*I'd like to have improbable combinations scrutinized more carefully but not prohibited
*Instead of negative restrictions I'd like to have positive enforcement of "probable race/class/cultural" combinations (2 extra attribute points or a plus 1 magic item or "fast tracking approval" or ________)
*No restrictions -- totally freeform
*I don't think the setting allows character type _______ which I would like to play.
[/sblock]
Everything, including the poll, is also editable on the wiki.
If you want to go write, improve, change, make new pages, add a link by writing [[Alternative proposal]] and going to your own page, whatever.
I'm assuming this shot is aimed at me.goblin king said:
This may come as a shock but I'm fairly anti-homebrew. I'd prefer to run eberron. But wizards IP policy + enthusiasm for self owned + lots of other stuff (existing LEW eberron, etc) means that's a nonstarter.
I do like story games (dogs in the vineyard, etc...) that grant players more authorial control. I'd like to see more cross polination between DnD and story games.
Heck I liked it so much I started one. Structurally, basically identical to what you want. I'm here to tell you it's both awesomely fun and, at times, a lot of work. And that's with five players.
You are planning on having this be a larger game, right?
The imperium = Rome + Everway (more or less)goblin king said:
If you're saying dnd begins and ends with Tolkien +/- a bit of greyhawk?
I'm not really sure what to say.
If you're saying most people want to play in the forgotten realms so we should make forgotten realms with the serial numbers filed off?
That's... well, I think you're selling the whole thing short, but people like what they like.
Great go post that setting and beat me in a poll.
Not gonna write it for you.
In my experience the worst sorts of games are ones where the setting is written without thinking about the kind of game you want to play.goblin king said:
I saw a lot of games like these in high school (and college), long on idea (usually just one idea) and really short on fun for the players.
Fundamentally your proposal boils down to
I want a freeform game, where everyone else conforms to my idea of what dnd is...
How's that gonna work out in practice?
Are the judges supposed to reign everyone else in while you frolic about doing whatever you like?
However much you may not the setting proposal (two now) I've worked up (which is fine, they're extreme and weird in your eyes) you're also not dealing with reality.
You should look at the characters that were proposed in Rayex's lost game. They're freaking awesome and freaking weird (especially when they're all in the same world).
And you're gonna get the same characters proposed in ANY Lew game.
What're you gonna do, turn them away because you don't like them?
-I- think that's the wrong move. They're great characters and they come with motivated and creative players.
You build the setting you want for the game you're gonna run and the players you have.
If you want to build a setting for you and five of your best friends from LEW then do it.
But you want to have the community get involved? You're going to build a tent that lets people bring some weirdness/creativity in.
I'm not really going to respond to your cracks about whether I'll be playing or not... I think they're a bit inappropriate for EnWorld.
I -am- sorry that my proposals fall so far outside the bounds of what you consider acceptable. But, however much you may loath them, they address points you should at least consider.
[/sblock]
I agree. That was basically what I was saying in the "elements" argument. At the same time I think we need to at least think about structure.Halford said:
We're gonna have (hopefully) more than a few players, a setting that works great for five or ten PCs may struggle when you get 20 or 30 running around. Especially if they're weird and unusual, which is pretty much par for the course. (Rayex's lost game is a good cross section of the sort of characters I expect people to want to play.)
With that in mind I've ginned up a second proposal (the Transitive Isles) that's radically different from the first.
(Or rather, it's basically the same, but it'll be different to people who don't separate fluff from structure).
Some highlights (the names are placeholders)
Goal: To create a lightly defined starting area; it will borrow elements from various suggestions but only to the degree necessary to provide a world with enough verisimilitude for roleplaying. It's a mash-up of the current proposals and suggestions on the LEW Discussion thread, with some adjustments necessary to make it easier for judges to judge, DMs to create and players to have unusual characters without it disrupting other people's enjoyment/sense of verisimilitude.
The ''main island'' has always been known for its heroes. The greatest heroes of recent memory were ''the five''. They served as the main islands protectors for a decade growing in power and renown. Eventually their fame grew and petitioners came from far and wide pleading for assistance. Two years ago it was only the brave efforts of the five that saved ''main island'' from destruction at the cost of their lives.
Since then would-be heroes have streamed to the isle. Some seek to take there place, some to honor them, some to struggle to fill the massive vacuum left by their passing and some serve dark forces that seek to take advantage of their deaths. In addition to this sudden upsurge in brave warriors, cunning rogues and wise mystics the death of the five has brought other, less welcome changes. The island's interior had grown dark and dangerous, threatening the logging and other industries the town has long engaged in.
For more go see the wiki.The ''main island'' has always been known for its heroes. The greatest heroes of recent memory were ''the five''. They served as the main islands protectors for a decade growing in power and renown. Eventually their fame grew and petitioners came from far and wide pleading for assistance. Two years ago it was only the brave efforts of the five that saved ''main island'' from destruction at the cost of their lives.
Since then would-be heroes have streamed to the isle. Some seek to take there place, some to honor them, some to struggle to fill the massive vacuum left by their passing and some serve dark forces that seek to take advantage of their deaths. In addition to this sudden upsurge in brave warriors, cunning rogues and wise mystics the death of the five has brought other, less welcome changes. The island's interior had grown dark and dangerous, threatening the logging and other industries the town has long engaged in.
[sblock=The setting comes with it's own poll]
You will note that there is no "I hate this" option.
You can't build a setting by saying by getting a list of "everything that somebody-on-the-net doesn't like". Instead of wasting electrons grousing about how the proposal isn't what you want, propose a clear strong alternative. Try to make it flavorful, fun and interesting.
Also consider how it will work in play: "I want my character to be able to do anything with no restrictions" will put a lot of pressure on the judges and create a lot of arguments. Try to remember that you are writing for a (hopefully) a large group of players and several judges.
=== Reskining the Setting ===
* Instead of islands at sea as the fluff; I suggest re-skinning it as _________ (cities connected by magical portals, whatever)
=== Setting Overall ===
*I feel the starting area is...
*...too large
*...too small
*...around the right size
*...too restrictive
*...too open
*...strikes a good balance between permissiveness and verisimilitude
*...too/not enough ______; I suggest instead ________
* I think it should be easier/harder for characters/groups to move around because _________; I suggest _________
=== Specific elements ===
*I have concerns/doubts about <insert setting element X>; it could <insert adverse impact here> instead I suggest _________
* I realize that <insert setting element X> provides certain features _________; however I think that it <insert adverse impact here> I believe that <new setting element> would preserve the good parts of the old element while resolving my concerns.
Example: I realize that The Imperium provides certain features (It is a morally ambiguous actor in the world, and provides the opportunity for political games; however I think that it is too obviously like rome and ruins verisimilitude for be because I prefer my fantasy settings to be more like "traditional" DnD I believe that My New Proposal [link] would preserve the good parts of the old element while resolving my concerns.
=== Character Creation ===
*I like having some restrictions on starting character class/race/cultural combinations
*I'd like to have some restrictions but not these restrictions; instead I suggest ______
*I'd like to have improbable combinations scrutinized more carefully but not prohibited
*Instead of negative restrictions I'd like to have positive enforcement of "probable race/class/cultural" combinations (2 extra attribute points or a plus 1 magic item or "fast tracking approval" or ________)
*No restrictions -- totally freeform
*I don't think the setting allows character type _______ which I would like to play.
[/sblock]
Everything, including the poll, is also editable on the wiki.
If you want to go write, improve, change, make new pages, add a link by writing [[Alternative proposal]] and going to your own page, whatever.
Last edited:
Atanatotatos
First Post
About Hadeys: true, Hades (but Pluto, the Roman corrispective, much more) had the aspect of money (because of the riches in the underground...these myths all have a reason).
I've been a bit absent these days (graf may have noticed), but I'll write more later or tomorrow.
I've been a bit absent these days (graf may have noticed), but I'll write more later or tomorrow.
Halford
First Post
The ancient city of Daunton is considered by most to be EnWorlds hub, it has changed hands over a half dozen times in the last two centuries and generally serves as a good indicator of which power group is currently ascendent upon the continent.
Daunton is famous for its cosmopolitan attitude and for being a place where adventurers and mercenaries congregate; in particular The Hanged Man Inn is notorious for attracting adventurers from all over the world, and many a tale told starts with an anxious employer entering the rowdy common room of that establishment.
Politics: Daunton lies between three great powers. The Allaria league to the south, a powerful group of city states who support each other - for the most part - whilst manouvering for position amongst themselves. The Imperium to the west a great and powerful empire controlled by goblinoids which many now consider to be past the apex of its power and struggling to control its outer territories. And finally the wild northern lands populated by the barbarous northern men who are nomadic for the most part with the exception of a few whaleing settlements in the far north on the shores of the Seldom Sea - so called because at times it is almost completely iced over.
Currently Daunton is a member of the Allarian League and as such a free state. The city is governed by the council of Freemen, who in practice are the cities most influential men - technically these men are elected, but being a merchent people Dauntonites tend to be willing to sell anything including their votes and generally do.
Obviously the Imperium would be Romanesque as per Graf's suggestion, I always loved the former Hobgoblin empire in Eberron and prefer Hobgoblins as rulers as opposed the Eladrin who I personally would rather incorporate into the mystical twilight world of the Feywild. I like the idea of a less black and white Zoranastrian religion for the Empire a set up with two clearly opposed dieties each served by powerful demi-gods where good and evil is not clearly set up. Perhaps the opposition could be lawful vs chaotic with the Imperium primarily worshipping the lawful diety and factions amongst the goblinoids worshipping the chaotic diety in secret.
The Allarian league is of course an obvious ancient Greece knock off. The differences amonst City states make for a wide variety of possible cultures and customs and states can always be added to serve almost any DMs purpose.
The Northern lands would to me be ideal as both a wilderness full of powerful monsters and as the home to barbarian tribes of several races. Maybe even a few emerging kingdoms in the more western feudal tradition with lodges and Knights - though I am thinking of a less ploshed Knightly image a burly brute on a horse rather than a noble gentleman.
Daunton would serve as a kind of neutral ground between these groups, a melting pot where any and all come to trade and seek adventurers.
Well, just thought I would try to offer something constructive.
Daunton is famous for its cosmopolitan attitude and for being a place where adventurers and mercenaries congregate; in particular The Hanged Man Inn is notorious for attracting adventurers from all over the world, and many a tale told starts with an anxious employer entering the rowdy common room of that establishment.
Politics: Daunton lies between three great powers. The Allaria league to the south, a powerful group of city states who support each other - for the most part - whilst manouvering for position amongst themselves. The Imperium to the west a great and powerful empire controlled by goblinoids which many now consider to be past the apex of its power and struggling to control its outer territories. And finally the wild northern lands populated by the barbarous northern men who are nomadic for the most part with the exception of a few whaleing settlements in the far north on the shores of the Seldom Sea - so called because at times it is almost completely iced over.
Currently Daunton is a member of the Allarian League and as such a free state. The city is governed by the council of Freemen, who in practice are the cities most influential men - technically these men are elected, but being a merchent people Dauntonites tend to be willing to sell anything including their votes and generally do.
Obviously the Imperium would be Romanesque as per Graf's suggestion, I always loved the former Hobgoblin empire in Eberron and prefer Hobgoblins as rulers as opposed the Eladrin who I personally would rather incorporate into the mystical twilight world of the Feywild. I like the idea of a less black and white Zoranastrian religion for the Empire a set up with two clearly opposed dieties each served by powerful demi-gods where good and evil is not clearly set up. Perhaps the opposition could be lawful vs chaotic with the Imperium primarily worshipping the lawful diety and factions amongst the goblinoids worshipping the chaotic diety in secret.
The Allarian league is of course an obvious ancient Greece knock off. The differences amonst City states make for a wide variety of possible cultures and customs and states can always be added to serve almost any DMs purpose.
The Northern lands would to me be ideal as both a wilderness full of powerful monsters and as the home to barbarian tribes of several races. Maybe even a few emerging kingdoms in the more western feudal tradition with lodges and Knights - though I am thinking of a less ploshed Knightly image a burly brute on a horse rather than a noble gentleman.
Daunton would serve as a kind of neutral ground between these groups, a melting pot where any and all come to trade and seek adventurers.
Well, just thought I would try to offer something constructive.
Last edited:
covaithe
Explorer
Graf, I really like the Transitive Isles writeup. Thanks for taking the time to do this; I think it's really helpful.
Noob question: I'm failing my INT check to understand the polls. Not the questions, they seem clear enough, but how to go about answering them. Is there supposed to be a way to answer from within the wiki page itself, or will they link to actual thread-based polls at some later time? Or should I just type something on this thread or some other thread that I haven't found?
Noob question: I'm failing my INT check to understand the polls. Not the questions, they seem clear enough, but how to go about answering them. Is there supposed to be a way to answer from within the wiki page itself, or will they link to actual thread-based polls at some later time? Or should I just type something on this thread or some other thread that I haven't found?
The Goblin King
First Post
Actually, that was directed at the LEW folks not you Graf. There is lots of votes in the poll but not many new posts in this thread. I am wondering if we should just move everything into Talking the Talk.
I'm not part of LEW although I did try it about 3 years ago.
I have no cred on this board.
I have no friends here.
Every game I have ever started has crashed and burned. Normally, I don't do play-by-post. I'm actually a pretty impatient guy. But, I'm trying to do better. 4e is easier to play and easier to run so I'm giving it another try. Hopefully it will be less frustrating for me then 3e was.
I am trying to remain neutral. I only want whats best for everyone.
TL;DR version: don't take things personal. I'm just some guy on the internet.
I'm not part of LEW although I did try it about 3 years ago.
I have no cred on this board.
I have no friends here.
Every game I have ever started has crashed and burned. Normally, I don't do play-by-post. I'm actually a pretty impatient guy. But, I'm trying to do better. 4e is easier to play and easier to run so I'm giving it another try. Hopefully it will be less frustrating for me then 3e was.
I am trying to remain neutral. I only want whats best for everyone.
TL;DR version: don't take things personal. I'm just some guy on the internet.
covaithe
Explorer
I added a discussion page for the Transitive Isles page with some comments / brainstorming. I'm not sure this is the best way to go about talking about this, but I thought it was worth a try.
Phoenix8008
First Post
Well, I'm still here too. And I'm in the camp of wanting to play/run a game more than I want to build a world. If we left the world pretty blank outside of the starting, then anybody could make their adventure they run include bits of THEIR world as they want it to be. Or have a portal to a new place with flavor which they like. Heck, maybe this idea causes some of the problems early LEW had. I don't know, I wasn't there early on. I know that I'm still interested, but everything seems very jumbled and confused right now.
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