Discussion - LEW 4th Edition

Speaking only for myself, I find it creatively stimulating to have other people's setting elements to work with and around. But then, I've always had a crippling fear of the blank page.

My fear of allowing these easily created zones is a lack of cohesion to the world. The prescribed norm would be to create your own zone for whatever new purpose you come up with. The zones, I predict, would become isolated and disconnected. Each DM would cart the PCs off to a new zone for every adventure, or to that DM's own zone, and the world isn't "living" in the sense that other PCs/DMs influence the world around you. L4W then becomes a forum for matching PCs to DMs with the Judges as safety nets for disappearing DMs, but not much more.

This is a worst case scenario, in my opinion. It could very well be that people link zones up frequently and create their own truly unique interplay of allied floating islands or whatever.

So yeah, we could define the world as an array of varied zones, linked together in some fashion. But imagine we didn't explicitly say, "Okay guys, L4W is a world of many large floating elephants walking in a vast Enworphant herd, and the worlds on their backs are sometimes linked by their massive trunks as they greet and bathe each other."

Even without this explicit statement, a DM who wants to run a game on an elephant's back could look at past adventures, look at the world lore, and exclaim, "By golly, what this world needs is some giant elephants!" So he creates The Mud Pit, an impossibly large crater, filled with mud, in which a "small" herd of immense elephants slowly wade. A citizen of one of these Elephant Lands travels to the Green Dragon Inn, where many brave adventurers gather. He enters the inn, announces his name ("Cue Tippe, of Elefanta!"), and proclaims, "The carrier Enworphant of my homeland Elefanta has a monster infestation in its trunk. We need powerful heroes to rid it of the monsters and stop the sneezes that are bringing down our cities!" And so begin the less-than-glorious adventures of Cue Tippe and the Sinus Exterminators Extraordinaire. If this quest is successful, other DMs may start games on the backs of elephants, and the Mud Pit can take a more central role in L4W.

Anyway, my point is, L4W should start detailed enough that DMs have a setting to place their adventures, but vague enough that DMs have plenty of other places to set their adventures.

Generally I think I agree with the spirt of what you're saying.

I wanted to call something specific out.

Rae ArdGaoth said:

The zones, I predict, would become isolated and disconnected. Each DM would cart the PCs off to a new zone for every adventure, or to that DM's own zone, and the world isn't "living" in the sense that other PCs/DMs influence the world around you.

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We think about this completely differently.

Lets say that a DM runs a great adventure in the Mud Tomb; it's low level and nearby the main city.
Mid-way through something happens; the DM is gone. The party has to leave.
The adventurers loved the Mud Tomb, they want to go back; no other DM wants to run that dungeon though. They want to run their own stuff.

You're "living" world is now half-dead. The map is riddled with leavings of DMs-that-were. Maybe some stuff gets picked up, but some won't, and over time, that amount will increase.

In this other proposed structure , what happens when the DM of an area disappears?
That dungeon got pulled into another zone and is gone (or replaced with a new zone that a new DM wants to run).
If a zone falls into disuse maybe it "falls out of planar alignment"; your characters would love to go back to the mud-tomb, but the astral paths have grown long and thin and they can not hope to survive the newly dangerous trip through the dark beyond.

(And if the DM comes back? or a new DM wants to use it? Volia! it's back in alignment)

Instead of dealing with the problem OOC (the players don't have their characters mention their old adventure because they can't go back) you can deal with it IC.

Your setting now matches the OOC reality. If your goals in an living RPG are easy-of-use and verisimilitude I will argue that this is a vast improvement.

covaithe said:

Speaking only for myself, I find it creatively stimulating to have other people's setting elements to work with and around. But then, I've always had a crippling fear of the blank page.

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I do agree that you need something "solid" to hang a setting on, and that it's a lot easier not to create in a vacuum.

I've been holding back more specific ideas because I didn't want to prejudice the framework discussion with a specific suggestion.

In other words: I have a specific idea that I think has strong narrative potential.
But, it may be very (too) strong, or not palatable to people, or what have you.

I didn't want to gum up the works because I think that people would get hung up on a lot of strong gut reactions to the setting fluff and the structure point.

Rae ArdGaoth said:

My fear of allowing these easily created zones is a lack of cohesion to the world. The prescribed norm would be to create your own zone for whatever new purpose you come up with.

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Obviously, a point of concern.
I'd always assumed that major zones would be approved, independently of characters and games.

A process like
1. Propose
2. (judges decide on whether the application is complete enough to be usable?)
3. public comment period (with edits/suggestions)
4. community votes on acceptance (with or without alterations, etc).

I'm talking about building a structure that allows a wide variety of ideas and themes to co-exist without a lot of work; not about accepting everything.

For minor zones that a DM might create for a game I'm not sure why its such a big problem. DM willl make a dungeon and then disappear... this way, at least, you can explain why nobody wants to go there (the portals to it are closed, whatever)

I worked up something that i think is a decent response to the whole "it'll be a bunch of flavorless zones" argument. (sorry about the length, got slightly carried away)

You may or may not like the idea of a pseudo-roman transdimensional empire ruled led in a democratic fashion by nigh-immortal elves. [edit: i should say I just worked it up today so it's just supposed to be a rough sample, nothing more]

It's really just an example of how to introduce story elements at the beginning that give a campaign structure and narrative while still being wide open to individual creation later.

Interesting thoughts, Graf, and a fun-sounding setting. I'm not sure it's right for L4W for various reasons I'll not get into at the moment, since you said it's only an example, not a proposal.

I am starting to be fond of the idea of a somewhat flexible world, but I'm also fond of a certain degree of... stability isn't quite the right word. The idea I'm trying to describe is that the "flexibility", i.e. the changefulness and not-completely-predictable geography might be more common at the wild outskirts and less common in central, settled areas. As a concrete example, suppose if the main starting "vale" were an island continent perhaps a thousand miles in diameter. On the mainland, geography is pretty stable, and people mostly get from one place to another by walking (or sailing, or riding, or whatever): with a few exceptions (unnatural storms, mysterious megaliths, etc), it's a normal, not very flexible world. But the sea is connected to a transitive plane, such that navigation is more art than science, and there could be a few rare portals connecting the mainland to outlying islands or other continents. A long trip to a far island or another continent might involve a choice between a series of sea journeys between islands that have stable portals, or a long overland trip to a stone circle that, when prodded correctly, will carry you to a matching circle near your destination, or whatever.

Obviously a very rough idea, but something like this allows both a fairly cohesive central area that isn't very vulnerable to the passing fancy of individual DMs, but still allows quite a lot of flexibility far from the center. Those of us that prefer to run adventures in areas that other people have fleshed out fairly well already can play in the center, and more creative people can do whatever they want in the outlying areas. Graf's Imperium setting isn't far from this.

In practice, I think that Rae is right that flexibility won't be a problem. As long as we don't get too specific, people will come up with ways to create the setting they want.

"The sundering minor Its legions flush with seemingly endless goblinoid hordes the Imperium had engaged in a long period of expansion; growing to dominate more than a dozen isolates at the height of its power. Virtually every goblinoid of fighting age had enrolled in the legion forming a devastation force that rolled across the cosmos; which left their own isolate vulnerable to an invasion. Unwilling to give up their fertile newly claimed isolates, which had already been divied up, the Senate dithered, bickering over which legion should return. In the end the goblinoid isolate was completely overrun, and connected as it was by carefully engineered shifts to key points in the system the whole Imperium was vulnerable. Goblinoids, in many case freed by their officers (who were themselves goblinoids after years of bloody warfare had taken its toll on the eladrin offier core) broke ranks; streaming back to defend their homelands and families. Concerned about the threat to the entire empire the senate authorized an awesome magical ritual, the like of which had never before been performed in the history of the Imperium, coordinated across dozens of worlds; officially the explanation is that this ritual would "temporarily close all shifts into the goblinoid isolate" giving the Imperium time to muster forces and launch a coordinated counter attack. What actually happened can only be described as a catastrophe. Under the pressure the the goblinoid isolate simply broke; the isolate fracturing and disgorging its contents into all the planes and hundreds of isolates. While small bands of survivors would survive most of the goblinoid population, million of beings, were wiped out in an instant. The Senate attempted to put the best face on things, but an unfortunate word by a shocked arcanist on the Senate floor would give the event it's name... the sundering minor."

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Solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant...



For what it's worth, i'd take your setting any day, Graf...


I'd also like to offer my collaboration specifically to create a pantheon for imperium. I believe the Greek pantheon will be perfect inspiration for this, for various reasons. First, with twelve or so major gods that have both a positive and a negative aspect, it's easy to sum up all the most important spheres of "competence". Furthermore, it is well known how several deities were revered both officially and in "mysteric cults". Adding demi-gods and minor local deities would be extremely easy for that was the nature of the actual ancient greek religion. Finally, acient greek religion had a generational nature, coming from the fact that more ancient gods were actually supplanted by the cults of populations invading the Aegean region, and survived mostly in myths and tradition (the myths have a repetitive nature too: Chronos overthrew Ouranos, and was overthrown by Zeus... who then defeated the primordial and savage forces of old represented by Titans and Hecatoncheires... this works so well with 4e fluff too... the Abys could be well called Thartarus and imprison a "chained god" or two... i'd say it fits)



EDIT: a simple sample pantheon of 12 deities, very basic. Obviously the names are not very appropriate as they are too reminiscent of the actual greek names.

[sblock]
Deiòs: The god of kings. He governs the sky, the thunder and lightning. The eagle is his symbol, as it is one of the symbols of the Imperium. He is said to have defeated the Primordials and brought peace to the Cosmos.
He also has a somewhat tyrannical and capricious aspect too, and storms are often explained as a manifestation of his anger.

Hadeys: The keeper of the dead. His name is not spoken least it brings misfortune to those who utter it. He is said to dwell and rule in the Shadowlands.

Poseeydus: Ruler of the Seas and great Lakes, he has influence over the winds, sea travels, and waterbound beasts. He's a feared deity and always sacrificed to before long travels (note: in absence of great seas or oceans, this may be a deity governing the shift passages?)

Phoebus: God of the Sun and light. He is said to give mortals the gift of prophecy and foreseeing. In his angered aspect, he is the god of archery and pestilence.

Proserphones: Bride of Hades. Goddes of melancholy and gloom, but also tied to the seasonal cycle and land fertility.

Eefeystos: God of Fire and forge. Mostly revered by dwarves, he is often depicted as maimed. A secluded god, dwelling in the Elemental chaos.

Aressus: God of war and strenght. Mostly tied to the violent aspect of battle, he is often given the attribute of cowardice. Often revered by goblinoids.

Hermethis: God of trickery,lies, travel, and luck. He's considered nimble and witty, and often revered by thieves and rogues. He is also said to show the souls the way to the afterlife.

Palladys: Goddess of wisdom and intelligence, but also tied to wars and protection. One of the most revered deities in the Imperium.

Arthamis: Goddess of woods, virginity, hunt and wild beasts, sister of Phoebus. She often represents the wildest aspect of the natural world. Highly revered by feys and other wood-dwelling creatures.

Erath: Bride of Deiòs, goddes of queens and priestesses. She watches upon the order, both in the family and the State. Keeper of traditions, she's also referred to as the goddes of righteous revenge.

Aphrodeys: Goddes of love and passion. Representation of beauty and charm. Also in his hostile aspect, the deity of blinding passion and disorder, and illusions.
[/sblock]

Personally I am not keen on the zones idea, while I appreciate Graf's points about ease of use the concept seems a little too forced and I am not sure how well it works with the points of light theme encouraged in 4th edition. To labor the proffered example some more maybe the Tomb of Mud simply caves in - we hardly need zones to maintain versimlitude, especially since for me they themselves stretch it.

Of course I don't inherently have a problem with the concepts of other planes and zones, but these seem more appropriate to high level play.

I love the idea of a brainstorming creation process where adventures and characters gradually generate a world. This is one of the things I would like encouraged more than in EnWorld, perhaps simply in the form of a location list.

Village of Grimwold
-Banks of river Rhesk
-Mayor Gunter Brunt
-Fiendish Giant Crocodile "Old Vic" - local legend.
-Orc tribes raid

This sort of thing is simple easy to do and could be implemented as a thread to which a DM posts with approved locals, etc., being periodically pasted by judges into the first post of the thread.

As a DM I would find this extremely helpful and if I was interested in spinning off from a different DM's local I could simply consult him or read the adventure that took place there.

On a different note I would really like to involve the Feywild in the new world as I have thoroughly enjoyed the fluff on it from wizards so far. The Formorians are great old school evil villains imo and I'd love to have easy access to them. My own preference would be to say that the feywild moves in and out of alignment with the material plane maintaining a kind of elusive fairy tale feel while being accesible to those with the right information, etc.

Despite my huge reservations about 4th edition I am thoroughly looking forward to being involved in the start of this project.

Quick random thought there, and I will admit essentially spewed out haphazardly as they occured to me.

Very cool world, Graf. I like the lexicon including slang and imperial words, it would really give playing the Imperium a unique feel.

Atanatotatos' deities are a fine selection of modified Greek gods, if we do decide to go that route. There's no truly evil god, which is interesting, but I think in line with the Greek pantheon. I do wonder what the original Greek pantheon advocates (Rystil Arden and Wik) would have to say about that selection, only because they seemed to be very familiar with the deities.

And I'm moving towards the "A very few established gods and lots of minor demigods/cults" camp. Wik made a character in LEW who worships Uncle Spider, a minor "saint" of one of the gods. Uncle Spider has a very different flavor than his parent deity, but their goals are in alignment. I think it's important for characters to be able to easily create the characters they want while also maintaining a firm core pantheon for creation myth, culture, and the PCs for whom a tailored religion isn't necessary.

The feywild and the shadowlands do sound cool! And I think Wizards intends for them to be more accessible, possibly as "low-level planes". That's the feeling I get anyway. It would be a simple thing for a DM to create a region of overlap in a forest grove or even a whole forest, very simple.

The Imperium, while very cool, might not work for LEW for several reasons, but I think it should be added to the list of settings on the wiki poll page.

I am happy to compromise the zones thing, and I think covaithe's idea about a "large central continent" with "zone-filled fringes" is a good idea. Or perhaps we could take Graf's Imperium's idea and have several continent central zones (be they on a floating islands or giant elephants) with smaller zones. ie, L4W mostly takes place on one, but there are other vast continents with ancient, thriving civilizations, and lots of smaller zones too. A good compromise between the flexible and the established, I think. It should be added to the polls' options.