Discussion - LEW 4th Edition

Brother Shatterstone said:

Woot! All this talk about Bugbears makes me rather happy. (To those who don't know I ran around with a bugbear avatar for about two years on this board)

To be honest the first thing I looked up when I got the new rule books was the rules for playing bugbears (I don’t know why I’ve just always enjoyed playing them) and it was the foremost thought in my mind when it came to voting. (That and most of the races in that section of the MM looked reasonable.)

Anyhow, besides posting about my admiration for bugbears, I do have another purpose to this post…

Maybe its just an assumption but why is it that we assume that all adventures are good? Not every adventure traveling the land has the noblest of hearts… Obviously, it helps (mostly the DM but the players too) but it doesn’t seem like it’s a flat-out requirement if the players/DM know what is expected… Right?

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I agree. Also, in a living world, you could have "crossovers" too ^^ Whata about the party of "retired" 30th level characters that becomes the final boss of a campaign? (ok that may be a little difficult...)

Daunton is my favorite City name, seems to crop up in all of my campaigns it just works for me. That being said I really wouldn't mind if anybody wishes to change it.

I like Bacarte - especially when I pronounce it in my Hobgoblin Pirate accent.

Currently I am picturing a Hobgoblin Rogue from Bacarte who is an aspiring merchant, an Eladrin Warlord from the Imperium and a Human Ranger with ties to the Feywild. Though I'm sure some of that will change before play begins!

Brother Shatterstone said:

Woot! All this talk about Bugbears makes me rather happy. (To those who don't know I ran around with a bugbear avatar for about two years on this board)

To be honest the first thing I looked up when I got the new rule books was the rules for playing bugbears (I don’t know why I’ve just always enjoyed playing them) and it was the foremost thought in my mind when it came to voting. (That and most of the races in that section of the MM looked reasonable.)

Anyhow, besides posting about my admiration for bugbears, I do have another purpose to this post…

Maybe its just an assumption but why is it that we assume that all adventures are good? Not every adventure traveling the land has the noblest of hearts… Obviously, it helps (mostly the DM but the players too) but it doesn’t seem like it’s a flat-out requirement if the players/DM know what is expected… Right?

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Firstly, well done with having the bugbear avatar.... I enjoy them also, but I was worried about being flooded with Bugbear brutal rogues...

As for the assumption of a good PC's doesn't it say that in the PHB? I've always thought it was a basic underlying aspect of D&D. According to the 4e PHB "If you choose an alignment for your character you should pick either good or lawful good". I'm not saying I wholeheartedly agree with it (in fact my favourite character was a Neutral Tiefling Rogue who was a mercenary and worked against the others as he was actually a paid spy by the BBEG (oh sorry did my arrow accidently get you? I thought I had more accuracy than that )

I, personally, won't play an evil PC, just something I can't get my head around.

Here's an attempt at a mythology of origins for the setting:


The first Aeon was Darkness.

The secon Aeon, Light blossomed out in darkness, and Light outlined the Chaos from the Dark, and Chaos was all, and all was in Chaos.

The third Aeon, love was born, and separation was born. For from Chaos, Ge, the Mother, and Ouranos the Shining too, and one laid herself under all things, and the other embraced her lovingly. And the Chaos that remained was alone and furious, and stabbed Ge, and shattered her. And Ouranos embraced her and soaked in her blood and they were closer and farther than before.

The fourth Aeon, children were born from Ge and Ouranos, and they were mighty and beautiful, and walked on the womb of their mother and looked up at their father. But Chaos was cast aside and jealous and also gave birth, but though mighty his children were, ugly and angry they were, too. And while the children of Ge and Ouranos gave life and beauty to the soil that was their Mother, the children of Chaos brought darkness, and sharp mountains, and scorching fires, and chilling cold, and they excavated the interior of Ge with caves and rifts. And the Mother was in pain and cried and shook, and remembered whe she was one. And from her memory a light was born that was fair and full of life and her children called it Elysium and inhabited it, but then it cast a long shadow on the opposite side, and the children looked at it and it was gloomy and deserted, and they called it Herebos, and few of them ever walked on it.
And then Ge was tired and fell asleep, and sad was Ouranos and followed her in her slumber to dream outside all that was, and they have not awakened since. And from their stillness the Cosmos was born, and the shifting Seas.


Well obviously shattered Ge is the Earth, and the Cosmos in this case, while Ouranos is the Astral Sea, and thefting seas are made of Ge's "blood" soaking Ouranos (to represent their "transitiveness"). Chaos is the elemental Chaos. the children of Ge and Ouranos the Gods, the children of Chaos the Primordials. Herebos is the Shadowfell and Elysium the Feywild. The "excavated interior"of Ge may well be the Underdark.
This was a first Myth of creation. More to come with the wars between Gods and Primordials.

renau1g said:

Firstly, well done with having the bugbear avatar.... I enjoy them also, but I was worried about being flooded with Bugbear brutal rogues...

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More into the idea of playing a Ranger but that's probably based upon a previous character bugbear character I made. He did have some rogue in him but I thought he was more ranger than his other classes.

renau1g said:

As for the assumption of a good PC's doesn't it say that in the PHB? I've always thought it was a basic underlying aspect of D&D. According to the 4e PHB "If you choose an alignment for your character you should pick either good or lawful good".

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Yes, I remember reading it and thinking it was mostly a marketing ploy for the inevitable "Book of Vile Darkness' or other 4th edition equivalent.

renau1g said:

I'm not saying I wholeheartedly agree with it (in fact my favorite character was a Neutral Tiefling Rogue who was a mercenary and worked against the others as he was actually a paid spy by the BBEG (oh sorry did my arrow accidentally get you? I thought I had more accuracy than that )

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Well, depending upon how clear cut and/or black and white one's opinion is your neutral character wasn't good and therefore was evil...

Just kidding. In the right game, and with the right constraints it can be fun to be the bad guy, but if your just raping and pillaging because you can get away with it its... Well, in my opinion NOT fun. But being evil, with purpose, can be just as fun as being good with purpose. (and, as you've somewhat discovered, it can also be more memorable...)

Anyhow, I'm getting the topic off subject so I’m stop there.

Well that does bring up some interesting questions though... are there any alignment restrictions? I'll admit I'm a bit ignorant if LEW or LEB have them.

I can't speak for LEB, but LEW doesn't have any alignment restrictions. That said, there are relatively few evil characters, since it's hard to run evil characters for any length of time without running into PvP issues. And there are some restrictions on PvP in LEW. I can't quote chapter and verse at the moment, but my understanding of it is that it is basically "not without prior consent from all parties, including the DM".

I imagine something similar could serve for L4W.

The Daunton Five might have consisted of these individuals:

Jeronel Threehammer, a male Dwarven cleric of Aressus. Always first into a fight, it was Jeronel's conscience that chose most of the battles fought by the Five.

Aurelia Carenvale, female Half-Elven warlock. Hot tempered, beautiful, and slightly crazy, she was the most famous of the Five, and possibly the most feared.

Arekja Nakralatl, male Dragonborn fighter. After his life was saved by Aurelia Carenvale, he set aside his ancestral greataxe and took up sword and shield, the better to defend Aurelia, to whom he swore an oath of protection.

Mauros Esthanapiros, male Human wizard. Always dressed in the finest red and purple silks, Mauros took care to have his finery fireproofed before wearing it, and for good reason.

Keshana Thayul, female Elven rogue. Slim, silent, and effortlessly deadly, Keshana took pains to keep her face veiled whenever possible so that she could walk unrecognized when she chose.



On the wall of the Hanged Man is a hand-drawn map behind a glass frame. Below the map is a letter in the same hand:

"Dear Mayor Brunt,

As you requested, here is our most recent map of the seas and coasts of the islands near Daunton. I caution you against relying on it too heavily, since, as you know, distances and even landmarks are subject to change when the fog rolls in. Still, with some caution, this map should be useful for many years yet.

You will note that very little is known of the interior of the larger islands, particularly Argonel and Kestoriel. The Feywild is strongest there, and direction and distance are easily confused. The few maps we have made of the region have been found to be physically impossible when examined back in Bacarte. They are full of tricks and illusions, like the picture in your office of the stairway that always ascends, circling back on its own base without ever going down. The mountains, and to some extent the larger rivers, can be seen from a great distance and so we are confident enough of their location, though more so on Argonel than Serenal. Perhaps the Imperials in Nova Renata might have better information.

No other islands have recently drifted within sight of our vessels. We will continue to inform you if that situation changes.

I remain your respectful colleague,

Kanesk Geniker,
Senior Merchant of the Free Merchants of Bacarte"



This is my attempt at the best of two worlds: having a map, and having the flexibility to not worry too much about the details of the map. The map itself is a crappy scan of a pencil drawing. Easy enough to clean up, but it will take me some time.

renau1g said:

Well that does bring up some interesting questions though... are there any alignment restrictions? I'll admit I'm a bit ignorant if LEW or LEB have them.

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LEB does not have any alignment restrictions, especially since Eberron has more "grey" than standard 3E (and apparently 4E) D&D. I am in fact playing an evil character right now (more of the "I'm better than you and you all suck" variety than the "I'm going to kill you all and ruin the plot" form). Players with jerk PCs, whether good, unaligned, or evil, are free to be kicked out by the DM.

Graf said:

One page per character with a "judge edit" added: Approved seems better. People can continue to add to their back story, adjust stuff, etc but DMs have an "approved stat build" that's maintained and accessible. (And you can easily tell if someone has adjusted the numbers and which numbers)

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I haven't played around w/ the wiki, but it seems fine (though there should be a forum link to the wiki for each character for each of access). The issue one would have to be concerned with is possible judge spoofing (or edits by canny players who can change the approved line). The forum thread (controlled by the judges) would be place to enforce this double check.

A couple of other things I've seen:
- Adding new material: Velmont suggesting keeping things to only free supplements for now. That's fine, but you should have a mechanism for adding new things (WotC or otherwise) via a proposal mechanism. This does put burden on the PCs to make sure DMs have everything they need to understand the character (but not so much to get in trouble w/ WotC). We have a 6 mo. rule on LEB to give folks a chance to get access to everything before it can be proposed; you folks may/may not wish to alter this.
- # of judges and such: Odd numbers good, but you should have some mechanism for making sure a lone voice doesn't get drowned out. We have our solution to this in LEB as well: 3 Yes with no No is a pass, but you need 4 Yeses if you have a single No.
All details for the above here.

As for my vote on a name: Living 4NWorld. Anything like Living ENWorld: The 4th Age suggests a connection/continuation w/ the ongoing living LEW game, which is not actually the case AFAIK.