E6: The Game Inside D&D

Ry · Sep 7, 2007

Hobo said:
Ryan Canada, I have to say this E6 concept is really kicking my butt. That is one of the greatest ideas I've seen on these forums in years.

I'm halfway thinking of taking the Modern SRD and applying the E6 concept to it as well as a houserule document for my campaign. I'd also probably turn the talent trees into post level 6 feat chains or something as well.

But the funny thing is, E6 means I don't most of the problems with D&D per se already. I can handwave the flavor instead of trying to do things like alternate magic systems, artifical level caps, etc.

This is very sweet.

Thanks Hobo! In the last 3 months I've been massively jazzed by how much positive feedback and even the occasional actual play comment I've received about E6. Also, it's been really fun for me in actual play. But the biggest reason for its current, modestly-polished state is that EN World has been so positive on the concept.

:...) I... I love you guys.

Evilhalfling · Sep 7, 2007

Grimstaff said:
I presented this to my thurs night players and they seem interested. We agreed the bonus feats would be instead of, rather than in addition to, the bonus feats normally gained at 3rd and 6th level.

I like your chart grimstaff - I was contemplating one using the with the exact same guidelines.
(x2 xp per level, a bonus feat at the halfway point)
It solves a lot of my world building issues, making level six far more rare than it would be otherwise. (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3690144&postcount=6)

I would probably start PCs at 1/2 way to second lvl, to reduce their 1st lvl jitters. Is the halfway feat instead of the 1st level feat or in addition to it? I was undecided.

Grimstaff said:
They did seem interested in capping at 10th instead of 6th though...

Why 10th? that opens up the raise dead/teleport can o' worms that E6 otherwise prevents.

joela · Sep 7, 2007

10th from a different POV

Evilhalfling said:
Why 10th? that opens up the raise dead/teleport can o' worms .

and from a players' viewpoint, what's wrong with that?

Ry · Sep 7, 2007

Well, it depends on the player. My old crew hates raise dead, and they're not fans of what the game turns into after teleport (they start to wonder why anyone bothers building walls). So from a player perspective there's lots of reasons not to want 10th level to be a game-world assumption.

Imp · Sep 7, 2007

I think I'm a convert to this, though I'm gonna go E8 (because I want to spread the love with second attacks, and because few 4th-level spells strike me as too terribly high-magically egregious, and a few particularly on the cleric side I think I actually want in the setting).

Many many thanks!

Ry · Sep 7, 2007

E8's been a popular topic of discussion, and I'm positive someobody out there is running such a game. My major concerns are Reincarnation, Evards, and ... something else. Kunimatyu (who's become something of my E6 Trusted Lieutenant) has given it even more consideration I think.

knight_isa · Sep 7, 2007

rycanada said:
Can someone help me / Quasqueton? I have no idea what's causing the error, I can open the file from work or home.

Both IE and Firefox opened them without problem for me.

I should point out that the "Save target as..." option that I prefer doesn't work--that tries to save attachment.htm or attachment.php instead. I had to open them in a browser (the Save As... option was available once they were there, though).

knight_isa · Sep 7, 2007

Grimstaff said:
As such, my progression chart would look something like this:
0xp 1st lvl
1000xp bonus feat
2000xp 2nd lvl
4000xp bonus feat
6000xp 3rd lvl
9000xp bonus feat
12000xp 4th lvl
16000xp bonus feat
20000xp 5th lvl
25000xp bonus feat
30000xp 6th lvl
+bonus feat each additional 5k xp

My hope is that this justifies the 6th lvl npcs in a my campaign being older than 18 or so ;-) and that it stretches out these fun low levels without too big of a gap between rewards.

I had considered something like that, but "these fun low levels" as you call them aren't as fun for me as 5th-6th, and that progression doubles the amount of time it takes to get to the "really fun levels". Granted, I'm leaning toward E8 rather than E6, too.

It's important to remember some of the goals of E6:
1) to maximize playing time within the levels that provide the most enjoyment. If you and your players get the most enjoyment out of lower levels, then this would be great. Personally, I like 5-8th or so best, and I like to get from 1st to 3rd as quickly as possible (or just start at 3rd).
2) to minimize DM prep time. Remember, in stock E6 you can use 1-6 level NPCs in published adventures/npc wikis/whatever as-is. You only have to change higher-powered NPCs. If you add a feat per level, you have to change every NPC of level 2+ as well as a portion of your 1st level ones. Or assume that everyone takes Skill Focus (some skill that will never impact the game) as their bonus feats. (I should note that I like the feat/level approach in a non-E6 game, since feats are otherwise too scarce. In E6, though, that isn't the case.)

Just some thoughts.

Imp · Sep 7, 2007

rycanada said:
E8's been a popular topic of discussion, and I'm positive someobody out there is running such a game. My major concerns are Reincarnation, Evards, and ... something else. Kunimatyu (who's become something of my E6 Trusted Lieutenant) has given it even more consideration I think.

Hehe, Reincarnation. Yeah, that spell is... yeah. I hate it very much. I've gotten rid of it.

Other possible problem spells seem to be Discern Lies (but for 8 minutes? eh), Freedom of Movement, and Polymorph gets in there. But I already kick out/ nerf some spells of even lower level that don't fit in the feel of the game to me, so that's not a huge huge problem. On the other hand I want Neutralize Poison and Restoration. The latter could be changed into an incantation or something under E6, though.

I'm back and forth on the double xp cost/ interspersed bonus feat part. Good points for and against.

Grimstaff · Sep 7, 2007

Evilhalfling said:
I like your chart grimstaff - I was contemplating one using the with the exact same guidelines.
(x2 xp per level, a bonus feat at the halfway point)
It solves a lot of my world building issues, making level six far more rare than it would be otherwise. (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3690144&postcount=6)

I would probably start PCs at 1/2 way to second lvl, to reduce their 1st lvl jitters. Is the halfway feat instead of the 1st level feat or in addition to it? I was undecided.

Why 10th? that opens up the raise dead/teleport can o' worms that E6 otherwise prevents.

I actually am against the 10th lvl idea. I do like my games to have higher level magic, so I devised a quick feat to offset the lack of higher level spells:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3735421&postcount=428
My issue is that a martial character can add to his hp's, BAB, AC, and weapon dmg almost indefintely, "expert"-types have lots of skill and save increasing feats, whereas spell slingers top out pretty quickly. I've seen some feat chains that avoid this in a roundabout way, but I'm a Core3 DM and would prefer one simple mechanic. Problem spells are taken care of in Role Play, the "Elminster/Mordenkainen"-types in the setting jealously guard their higher level spells, you can't just automatically get one, so barring luck and special spell-finding missions those extra high level slots are mostly going to be for metamagic feat use. For the divine sorts, spells of 4th level or higher are only cast with the deity's (DM's) participation and permission, so no worries of Rez abuse there.