E6: The Game Inside D&D

e9

thanks for everyone's response. after i posted the question, i started going over my 10th level arcane casters for the weekly campaign and realized that, yeah, the game is different once teleport, evard's tentacles, etc. come into the fray.

as i discussed with one of my dm's last night after our party fought similarly powered foes: we're far more like supes in fantasy drag than heroic but mortal folks from LoTR. combat is buffing with false life, bull strength, bless, mass conviction, mage armor, greater, shield, etc., followed by teleporting to the bad guys location, then using fly, mass. combat which then expands with summon monsters v, darkness spells, evards tentacles, and harm causing up to 120 points of damage.

by the way, is it me, but is it easier to forget all the special abilities of npcs while in combat? both my dm and in my own OA game last saturday kept forgetting all the feats and spells or sometimes even the opponent while trying to engage in fast-moving combat.

In response to all this talk of 8th, 9th, or higher levels for a cut off. . .

Keep in mind that the issue is not whether an Xth-level character can deal with another Xth-level character, but whether the world of NPCs can deal with the Xth-level character.

At 8th, 9th, and higher levels, your base city guard are speed bumps at best. A squad come to arrest the PCs is laughable. But at 6th level, a squad is still a noticable threat. (Though they still probably won't win an engagement, the engagement won't be a cake walk for the PCs).


The biggest benefit that I see with an E6 game, and what is making me think more and more about it, is the world building aspect. "Troll Swamp" will always be a dangerous place. The PCs will never level above that threat. A world doesn't have to have "beginner zones" and "advanced zones".

Quasqueton

Quasqueton said:

The biggest benefit that I see with an E6 game, and what is making me think more and more about it, is the world building aspect. "Troll Swamp" will always be a dangerous place. The PCs will never level above that threat. A world doesn't have to have "beginner zones" and "advanced zones".

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That's what I like about it.

Ryan posted the idea of worldbuilding being similar to the design of an amusement park. The player's can take their characters anywhere and have fun. A fairly fixed high end level of power (6th level plus feats) means that the Dungeon Master can build as much of the world as he wants and know that setting tough encounters at something that a 6th level (plus feats) group can handle is good and won't have to be adjusted too much because the characters will never show up at 10th level or have access to spells that could destroy the challenge of the area.

I'm still seriously considering running Gestalt E6.

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:

I'm still seriously considering running Gestalt E6.

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Do it! Do it! You know you want to!

I probably will. Just not sure when I'll start running it. I'm more likely to do that than to make the full switch to 4th edition. And, I don't think 4th edition is going to fix the problems that E6 addresses.

I was looking at some villains in The Shackled City and considering what they would look like if they were converted to gestalts. Overall, they don't look that hard to convert. I'm getting a little better at the stat blocks. And, that's the main thing that's been holding me back.

Did you get a look at the Warcanist, Ry? How about the feats? Would you allow the feats in E6?

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:

I probably will. Just not sure when I'll start running it. I'm more likely to do that than to make the full switch to 4th edition. And, I don't think 4th edition is going to fix the problems that E6 addresses.

I was looking at some villains in The Shackled City and considering what they would look like if they were converted to gestalts. Overall, they don't look that hard to convert. I'm getting a little better at the stat blocks. And, that's the main thing that's been holding me back.

Did you get a look at the Warcanist, Ry? How about the feats? Would you allow the feats in E6?

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Dude, don't try to convert an adventure path to E6 -- that's way too much work, especially when the paths are already designed for the 1-20 transition, and already designed for you so you don't have any extra workload. Or did I misunderstand you?

Hey wow! This is sweet! I saw it today, and I had a bunch of thoughts.

First, have you thought about introducing feats with prerequisites of "X # of feats"? Not only would this serve as a way to determine when certain feats can be taken, it also rewards feat-based classes (fighters, monks, etc.) because they'll be able to take these earlier.

Second, I love psionics, but there are a couple feats that cause problems. Namely, these are feats that scale with more feats: Psionic Body and Psionic Talent. Psionic Body gives you 2 HP per psionic feat you have. Throw in 20 feats, and that's 40 HP, meaning even the d4 Psion's HP rivals that of a Barbarian's. Second, Psionic Talent is usually quite awful in a normal campaign. Feats are limited, and when you're burning 23 power points per cast, another 5 power points isn't going to help much. On the other hand, in E6 you're burning at most 7, and the feat scales quadratically: the power points you get from taking the feat n times = 1/2*n(n+3). Take Psionic Talent 20 times, and you get 230 power points, which is almost enough to fuel 33 overchanneled max-PP manifests.

So, Psionic Body should probably be nerfed down to 1 hp per Psionic Feat, and I came up with these feats:

Heroic Toughness
Prerequisites: Con 15, 6 HD

Benefit: You gain 1 hit point for every two feats you have (including this one). If you have at least 37 hit points from hit dice alone (before Constitution and other bonuses), you instead gain 1 hit point for every feat you have.

Special: This feat overlaps with Psionic Body. If you have this feat, Psionic Body works normally but Heroic Toughness will not count [Psionic] feats when determining its effects.

(37 HP is the average a 6d10 char gets. If you don't use average HP, you'll have to find a different metric.)

Psionic Talent [Psionic]
Prerequisite: Having a power point reserve.

Benefit: Treat your ability scores as being 4 points higher for the purposes of determining bonus power points from high ability scores. (This works out to be 1 power point per manifester level.)

Special: You gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

(Which led to...)

Magical Talent
Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells.

Benefit: Treat your ability scores as being 4 points higher for the purposes of determining bonus power points from high ability scores. (You get an extra 1st level spell slot at ability scores 12, 20, 28, 36, etc. You get an extra 2nd level spell slot at ability scores 14, 22, 30, 38, etc. You get an extra 3rd level spell slot at ability scores 16, 24, 32, 40, etc.)

Special: You gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

(I think this is better than Expanded Knowledge. The spell slots will look more like 10/9/8 than 6/6/20. And for the paladins and rangers, we have

Magic Training
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 1st level spells.

Benefit: You gain an extra 1st level spell slot. If you have more than one spellcasting class, you must choose which class gains this feat’s effect.

Special: You gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.



I also recommend against having feats that don't provide an immediate benefit. Skill Beyond Your Years, for instance, should provide one or two skill points, or some other minor benefit. It's not fun to have to wait another 5000 XP in order to take advantage of some other feat.

Also on the thought of skill points:

Trait
Benefit: Choose two skills that are thematically linked. You get a +2 trait bonus to those two skills. Trait bonuses do not stack.

Special: All feats that grant +2 bonuses to two skills, like Alertness or Negotiator, provide trait bonuses instead. You may gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, you may choose different skills.

(Eliminates crazy stacking)


Finally, E6 might make it easier to balance classes. I'm thinking the Monk and possibly the Soulknife should have full BAB progression. Additionally, there is another interesting side effect for melee balance: considering the soft cap of +2 bonuses to weapons due to caster level, two-weapon fighting might actually equal two-handed fighting in effectiveness. Of course, two-weapon fighting will cost more...

I'll try running an analysis on Monk and Soulknife full BAB progression later.

Glad you're psyched about E6, Zelc!

One thing to keep in mind with E6 is that while individual DMs can retool classes/spells/etc, we're trying to keep the basic E6 rules limited to optional bonus feats.

I think you're correct that the two psionic feats need limitations -- 1hp per psi feat sounds about right, and a feat that grants +6 power points (ie, roughly equivalent to a 3rd level spell) would work instead of a quadratic scaler. I think the ability score bonus enhancers are a neat idea, but a little clunky in play, though I agree with you that Expanded Knowledge should have some way to stop the 6/6/20 phenomenon.

I think the Trait idea is probably unnecessary, but a feat that grants +2 to two skills that doesn't stack with the existing +2/+2 feats is fine, I'm sure. Remember, Skill Beyond Your Years is for characters really pushing the skill limits, so a 2 feats-1 payoff is not unreasonable considered the ability training feats, for example.

I'd probably give soulknives full BAB in my games, but it's not the sort of houserule you'd see in the E6 main document. With regards to the Monk, note that we do have a feat that eliminates flurry penalties, so their +4 BAB isn't as big of a deal.

The idea for the Psionic Feats seems good idea. The feats to get more power points is based on the assumptions that power levels increase with the amount of feats you get, but that assumption is no longer true in E6.

For hitpoints, I consider adding a "Epic Toughness" feat that grants +6 hit points per taking and requires Toughness and Improved Toughness (and level 6+, of course). Though I am not entirely certain that this is required and might not turn into a problem after a few "epic levels"...

I suggest not increasing skill modifiers much higher. I think one of the benefits of halting at level 6 is that modifiers to checks top out, too. This is especially important for skill checks that multiple characters have to take in a specific situation (Hide, opposed checks) - you don't get into situations were it will be impossible for one character to beat a DC while it is a an automatic for another. Basically it's the same reason why Starwars Saga Edition uses the level based skill modifiers - keep everything within the range of a d20 roll.

Instead of adding more skill ranks and cramping up higher modifiers, add reroll abilities (higher chance to succeed without meaning you can achieve even "_more_").

Core Epic skill challenges should probably not be achievable to E6 characters.

I think the same can be applied to attacks and saves. Epic Reflexes could allow you to reroll your result if you're unhappy. Epic Weapon Focus could allow one reroll per round with an attack and so on...

I am not sure yet if I will get to use E6, but if, these are definitely feats I will consider.

The problem with the extra pp/spell slot feats is that I don't know of a better way to word them. In effect, the psionic one is "Gain 1 power point per manifester level", but if I just write that, it will be confusing. Does it update when I gain more manifester levels or not? Similarly, there's two possibilities for the spell one based on what score they start with. Either they gain a level 1 spell slot every other time and a level 2 and level 3 spell slot every other time (the less desirable option), or they gain a level 1 and level 2 spell slot every other time and a level 3 spell slot every other time (the more desirable option). Wording that straight up, though, would be a pain in the butt .

The trait bonuses might be a good idea... not sure though. I'm just worried someone will stack up a ton of +2 bonuses to a skill using the +2/+2 feats. Rerolls are certainly an interesting approach.

Oh yea, another thing. Some people in CharOp found that LA creatures are too good. I suggest removing the 4 LA option (Pixies make absolutely fantastic Rogues with permanent Greater Invisibility and SR 21), and perhaps further reducing the points on the LA 2 by 2 and LA 3 by 4.

The thing about rebalancing Monks and Soulknives is it's really easy to compare them to other melees since you only have 6 levels to worry about. It should be done core only (for many reasons), so the options are restricted as well. It shouldn't be too tough.