E6: The Game Inside D&D

So, I'm nearing the end of my E6 campaign, and after trying for a few years, I'd have to say the experiment has been less than successful.

Three of my players flat out DON'T LIKE E6 -- in fact, one of them recently quit partly because of it. The other three don't seem to mind it but aren't all jazzed up by it either.

Personally, I love it. I'd love to play in an E6 game. But my players...

If asked, they dance around the issue of WHY they don't like it. Combat is always the same, we want more variety, etc. I still think the issue is really, "We want access to high level spells", but no one ever actually SAYS that.

So I'm wondering. Could this work, for a future campaign?

Standard 1-20 D&D, but cut out the high level magic. Only spells of level 3 and below can be cast. Higher level casters keep getting spell slots of higher level, but can only fill them with metamagic versions of lower level spells. For example, Empowered Fireball might fill a level 5 spell slot.

Ideally, it's the only change I'd need to make, other than possibly making metamagic feats more available (maybe giving some bonus metamagic-only feats to casters). By the book, the metamagic versions of lower levels spells are equal in power to the actual higher level spells, so no other changes would need to be made.

Personally I think I'd rather just play my version of E6, as it gives more options and variety to the PCs (IMO).

Any comments, opinions, potential pitfalls people can see?

Thanks,

- Ron ^*^

Werebat said:

So, I'm nearing the end of my E6 campaign, and after trying for a few years, I'd have to say the experiment has been less than successful.

Three of my players flat out DON'T LIKE E6 -- in fact, one of them recently quit partly because of it. The other three don't seem to mind it but aren't all jazzed up by it either.

Personally, I love it. I'd love to play in an E6 game. But my players...

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Bummer, that.

You could always try PbP. I never seem to see enough E6 campaigns posted (and never manage to get into one).

Stegyre said:

Bummer, that.

You could always try PbP. I never seem to see enough E6 campaigns posted (and never manage to get into one).

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PbP? I assume it's "Play by XXXX", but I can't figure the second "P".

Any thoughts on my idea?

- Ron ^*^

play by post. Granted, all games are effectively E6, as none last long enough to see higher levels

I think your idea isn't the best in this scenario.

firstly: Clearly you're not listening to your players, as they clearly want something other than what you are willing to supply them. If you want something more than you want them around, keep ignoring them.

This is just according to what you said: they don't like E6 because I think they want higher level spells. ...I want to do 1-20 PCs with the same low-level spells. You've stated what you think part of the problem is, and then that your solution is to ignore that problem.
I also wonder if there are other issues that you're aware of that you're not saying; you don't have to, not here, but make sure to address those as well. It is critical to your success as a DM. Face the issues, work with them, plan around them, compromise and be inventive.

I mean this with sincerity and I want all ENworlders to have great games. This is my advice in this scenario, something to think on:

You need players who want to play the same games as you. If you're going to host them, make them happy. Comes with the territory. If not, you've missed the point. There is a threshold of discomfort after which they will abandon the game.

Then again, don't forget that you should play with people who you can work with. If you've got a creative idea and no audience, either shelve the idea, or expand your audience. Found a different group for one game, and join the others for higher-level play. No one says you have to exclusively game only one way.

I like E6. I also think I'm enjoying making higher level monsters. My group doesn't want high level, they want E6. I'm stuck.

Also, that 1-20 idea is, I think, a bad idea (IMHO; sorry if it sounds harsh) because you're forgetting what all the monsters do. You'd end up using lower CR monsters that have been advanced, instead of higher CR monsters whose abilities are designed to challenge characters with access to higher level spells. Without those spells, do you really think a band of even level 20 PCs stands a chance against Beholders? Against a Pit Fiend? These are staples of high level play.

The reason E6 works is because of the level between monsters like that and what the PCs can do. *a* dragon is a big threat, as it should be. One doesn't expect to win, except with a legendary arrow and the location of the dragon's special weak spot.

Remember, the Spellcasters don't get all their interesting stuff, but Fighters will reign supreme. How is this fun? How is it fair?

I suggest Iron Heroes. Download it if you can't buy it. Mike Mearls made it, and it's through Malhavok Press, I believe. It's no-magic D&D with all the monsters you're used to. 1-20, I think.

Or the Conana RPG from Mongoose. I've heard great things about that. also 1-20.

Werebat said:

PbP? I assume it's "Play by XXXX", but I can't figure the second "P".

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Yeah, play by post, like fireinthedust said.

Here are at least a couple of places I know of two run such games and to recruit players:

Giantitp: Finding Players (Recruitment) - Giant in the Playground Forums
Mythweavers: Games & Ads - Myth-Weavers

Poke around on both sites and you can find threads on PbP games to get a sense of how it happens.

As for how to satisfy your own players, fireinthedust made some very good points. Basically, you need to ask them what they want, not us. The real advantage of the internet is not that it can tell you what the person next to you wants, but that you can almost certainly find others who want what you want. There's an important difference between those.

As for fireinthedust's comments about how your proposal impairs players' ability to fight high CR monsters, let me point you to a recent Giantitp thread, where the goal was making E6 parties to defeat a Balor: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread] - Giant in the Playground Forums

E6 v. Balor: Okay, that's awesome. No time to finish the thread, but I must know if someone did it. you'd need to do a Pun-Pun, though, or something like it, right? True Strike for sure... Maybe a sword of True Strike?

If they can do it, I take it back. Still, the point of E6 is that, for the most part, this should be stupidly impossible. And I don't know that a Balor, with SR, can really be taken on except with +35 feats and specially-created gear. I'm skeptical, but open to having my mind blown.


PBP: you forgot Right here on ENworld!!!

There, see? Already things are looking up.

and yes, if you run an E6 game, I will play.

Or Iron Heroes (I'm tempted to just make PCs for that).

I don't have the Conan rules, but I'd do that, also. I'm a massive Robert E. Howard fan (thought personally a trim, fit size), so I'd love to get my barbarian warrior on. Brule the Spear Slayer!

fireinthedust said:

E6 v. Balor: Okay, that's awesome. No time to finish the thread, but I must know if someone did it. you'd need to do a Pun-Pun, though, or something like it, right? True Strike for sure... Maybe a sword of True Strike?

If they can do it, I take it back. Still, the point of E6 is that, for the most part, this should be stupidly impossible. And I don't know that a Balor, with SR, can really be taken on except with +35 feats and specially-created gear. I'm skeptical, but open to having my mind blown.

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The results. I admit, there's at least some cheese going on, and if I were running an E6 game, I don't know how many of these I'd admit, but it is an interesting proof-of-concept, as it were.

I'm with you, in that I don't look for a Balor-whipping E6 game.

Okay, so far, we've got at least two who'd be happy to do an E6 campaign!

fireinthedust said:

and yes, if you run an E6 game, I will play.

Or Iron Heroes (I'm tempted to just make PCs for that).

I don't have the Conan rules, but I'd do that, also. I'm a massive Robert E. Howard fan (thought personally a trim, fit size), so I'd love to get my barbarian warrior on. Brule the Spear Slayer!

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Ha, I didn't expect to be steered towards PbP when I came here. Probably not my thing, as IME those games do, indeed, peter out quickly.

I understand fireinthedust's points, but with the caveat that it's only my hunch that what the players are missing is high level spells. They never actually say that, even when asked.

My own version of E6 (posted elsewhere in this thread) leans upward, so the players are already effectively casting "high level" spells if one counts metamagic (last session the mage lobbed an empowered, twin spelled magic missile at a ghost). Personally, I think the idea I posted here would result in LESS powerful characters overall, possibly weakening martial classes and boosting the casters somewhat. I think that's the mechanical reality, but I don't think it's actual power mechanics that the players are disliking so much as the way things "feel" to them.

I don't know if they'd be able to take on a balor, but at 6+10 they have taken on (and beaten) a pair of adult fang dragons without anyone dying (an NPC bard with them was one-shotted by a critical hit with a fly-by bite attack, but that was prevented by a player raising the stakes). At this point, EL 10 encounters are pretty routinely beatable for them.

One of the players who doesn't like E6 has, in all honesty, not seemed happy with ANY game ANYONE has run, ever. As much as I value his opinion, I have to bear that in mind.

Anyway, it's true, the internet can't help deal with individual situations so much. My game is down to 5 players now, two of whom don't like E6 but would rather play than not play and three of whom don't seem to mind it; the dynamics could change a lot with another player or two, which is probably my best bet. After this campaign ends in a few months, I'm going to pitch my next campaign idea, which will be E6 Pathfinder, and if anyone else wants to run a game the group may well vote to play in theirs instead. Which isn't such a terrible thing because it's not a bad time for me to take a break from DMing (trying for our fourth child here) and, frankly, I'm getting tired of the general heartache of running a game on Monday nights (as opposed to our Saturday night games, where more people can play and for more hours per session).

Thanks for the advice, all.

Just a quick share of recent toying with E6: I recently discovered this old article about dead class levels. Nothing to get really excited about (the provided features don't really correspond to the level they're given), but I thought that stuff makes up for new E6 feats.

Examples:

Rally Performance (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a bard hones his skill as a public musician and can reroll a Perform check once per day, but only when attempting to impress audiences for the purpose of earning money. A bard must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. See Perform on page 79 of the Player's Handbook.

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I would change that to let the bard use it for any Perform checks of course, but I don't know what to make out of this if you are already having/using luck feats/abiliy, action points, or the like.

Perceptive Tracker (Ex): At 14th level, a ranger never takes longer than a full-round action to find tracks with a Survival check. A second roll is still required to follow any discovered tracks.

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Makes up for a new option to find invisible creatures in combat, no?

EDIT: Here is part 2, covering several non-core classes.