E6: The Game Inside D&D

Animus · Sep 10, 2007

rycanada said:
To Imp, Geoffrey:

If you want to structure differently, you can say that 6th is "survived some danger and really important dudes" and say, 6th+20feats is "epic heroes"

I think that's the E6erron approach, ...

Exactly.

Kunimatyu · Sep 10, 2007

rycanada said:
E8's been a popular topic of discussion, and I'm positive someobody out there is running such a game. My major concerns are Reincarnation, Evards, and ... something else. Kunimatyu (who's become something of my E6 Trusted Lieutenant) has given it even more consideration I think.

Bwahahaha!

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of E8, because level 4 spells start to introduce the phenomenon of "magic that requires magic to defeat" -- which, necessarily, starts messing with class balance.

For example, take a spell like Solid Fog. An individual without either Gust of Wind or Dispel Magic is screwed -- they have no means to escape other than to lose 1-4 turns, depending on how it's centered. Improved Invisibility is another example -- a caster with that spell can harass the party relatively freely as long as Invisibility Purge, See Invis, Glitterdust, etc. haven't come into play. This phenomenon gets really bad with spells like Wall of Force and Forcecage, which require very special spells to overcome.

That's not to say there aren't level 4 spells that do not suffer from these problems -- Wall of Fire is my usual example, since it deals damage and functions as battlefield control, but the fighter can just take the damage and jump through the wall to get the wizard, as opposed to being totally shafted. The 4 alignment spells (Holy Smite, Chaos Hammer, etc.) I also don't view as problematic, since the damage + 1 round status effect combo isn't particularly broken.

With all of this in mind, I prefer E6, with select 4th level spells available as 1/day feats, as opposed to E8.

Now to finish my mini-setting document for Dictionary of Mu, finish the players roster, and start this grand experiment myself.

Will · Sep 10, 2007

You know, it's far too late, but this would have been an EXCELLENT approach to Scarred Lands.

The setting always struggled with the premise of a fairly low, magic-poor world, but was D&D, with all the high-level goofiness that entails.

shdwrnr · Sep 10, 2007

So I've been working this E6 campaign since I found out about it. On the topic of high level spells, I noticed another that you're missing that's fairly important:

Atonement [SPELL]
Prerequisite: Spellfocus (abjuration), Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, divine caster level 6th.
Benefit: You can use atonement, as the spell (paying focus and XP costs normally), with a casting time of 1 hour.

You can get away without if you roleplay it, but otherwise this 5th level spell is a must.

Will · Sep 10, 2007

What I would do, for specific spells that are nifty, is the following:

You can create a scroll or one-shot item of N by doing an appropriate series of quests (research, etc.). Part of the treasure reward for the quest is the book cost of said item.

So Atonement as a one-shot use item like a potion (assume any XP comes from the PC) would cost 2250 gp on the open market, if the market actually had such things.

Instead, the character searches for a way to atone, and learns he must defeat (various) and do (stuff). The treasure value for one PC's share of that is 2250 gp...

A wizard with scribe scroll might use the same process, finding rare phoenix feathers and earth elemental essence to inscribe a scroll of Wall of Fire.

And so on.

It gives you a flavored, GM-moderated way with inherent limiters to include higher level spells into the game.

shdwrnr · Sep 10, 2007

Still working on my campaign. While working I created the following list to help with placing magic items. It follow's EvilHalfling's wonderous items lists.

[sblock=Armor and Shields]
ARMOR/SHIELD BONUSES
NOTE – Prices do not include cost of masterwork armor or shield.
+1 Enhancement Bonus: CL 3, 1,000gp.
+2 Enhancement Bonus: CL 6, 4,000gp.
Acid Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Arrow Deflection: CL 5, 4,000gp.
Cold Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Electricity Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Fire Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Shadow: CL 5, 3,750gp.
Silent Moves: CL 5, 3,750gp.
Slick: CL 4, 3,750gp.
Sonic Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.

SPECIFIC ARMORS
Celestial Armor: CL 5, 22,400gp.
Mithral Full Plate of Speed: CL 5, 26,500gp.

SPECIFIC SHIELDS
Caster’s Shield: CL 6, 3,153gp.
Spined Shield: CL 6, 5,580gp.
Winged Shield: CL 5, 17,257gp
[/sblock]
[sblock=Weapons]
WEAPON BONUSES
NOTE – Prices do not include cost of masterwork weapon.
+1 Enhancement Bonus: CL 3, 2,000gp.
+2 Enhancement Bonus: CL 6, 8,000gp.
Distance: CL 6, 2,000gp.
Merciful: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Thundering: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Throwing: CL 5, 2,000gp.

SPECIFIC WEAPONS
Dagger of Venom: CL 5, 8,302gp.
Javelin of Lightning: CL 5, 1,500gp.
Screaming Bolt: CL 5, 267gp.
Sleep Arrow: CL 5, 132gp.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Rings]
RINGS
Animal Friendship: CL 3, 10,800gp.
Chameleon Power: CL 3, 12,700gp.
Climbing: CL 5, 2,500gp.
Climbing, Improved: CL 5, 10,000gp. (10 ranks of climb can be achieved with the Skill Beyond Your Years feat)
Energy Resistance, Minor: CL 3, 12,000gp.
Feather Falling: CL 1, 2,200gp.
Invisibility: CL 3, 20,000gp.
Jumping: CL 2, 2,500gp.
Mind Shielding: CL 3, 8,000gp.
Protection +1: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Protection +2: CL 6, 8,000gp.
Spell Storing, Minor: CL 5, 18,000gp.
Sustenance: CL 5, 2,500gp.
Swimming: CL 2, 2,500gp.
X-Ray Vision: CL 6, 25,000gp.
[/sblock]

All items come from the DMG, have a caster level of 6 or less, and require spells of 3rd level or lower.

Ry · Sep 10, 2007

Nice work shdwrnr, I'll add that list of items to the main post. Atonement makes me more uneasy but that's only because I'm generally uneasy with how alignment is built into 3e, not because of power issues.

Ry · Sep 10, 2007

Kuni, could you write a Wall of Fire feat? Did you do so in the last thread? A Cone of Cold feat would be sweet too if we could get an appropriate version of it.

Raven Crowking · Sep 10, 2007

Remember that you can use incantations for any sort of spell effect that you want to occur in the game, but that you don't want to have generally available for daily use.

I would restrict Atonement to minor divine artifacts, so that the PCs have to travel to a holy site to Atone.

RC

Miar · Sep 10, 2007

Have to say I like this method better.. It goes along with the Gandalf was a 5th lv wizard thing in that you don't have characters getting skill ranks beyond reality (give or take)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
I just wanted to chime in and say that I am pretty intrigued by this concept. I have no idea if I will ever run a E6 game, but it sounds interesting.

Some Notes about skills:
I would recommend against increasing the attainable rank to high - Otherwise, you might up getting the same effect as leveling certain characters. (But I think it should be possible to expand a characters skills further)
An alternate suggestion would be to just lower the skill requisites, or add some feats that increases your skill ranks for the purposes of qualifying for feats.
Further skill improvement should (in my opinion at least) not increase _what_ the characters can achieve, but how easy it is for them get a possible result.
Examples might be (stealing from Star Wars Saga Edition):

Improved Skill Focus
Prerequisite: Skill Focus in the skill in question:
Take any one skill you have the skill focus feat in. Your effective rank is considered 2 points higher for determining if you qualify for a feat. In addition, you may decide to reroll any check made with the skill. You must take the reroll result, even if it is worse.

Greater Skill Focus
Prerequisite: Improved Skill Focus in the skill in question
Take any one skill you have the Improved Skill Focus feat in. Your effective rank is considered 2 points higher for determining if you qualify for a feat (this benefit stacks with Improved Skill Focus). In addition, you may always choose to reroll the skill and take the higher result.

Improved Skill Mastery
Prerequisite: Skill Mastery
Choose a number of skills equal to 3 + your Int Modifier in which you have the Skill Mastery for.You may now take 15 on the skill, which works identically as taking 10, except that your result is 5 points higher.

Greater Skill Mastery
Prerequisite: Improved Skill Mastery
Choose a number of skills equal to 3 + your Int Modifier in which you have the Skill Mastery feat. When taking 20, you require only half the usual time.

Or mix and combine the benefits of these feats like you prefer.

I would also recommend using the PHB II retraining rules a lot more - these make a lot of sense now. Characters now can change their focus, and losing skills, ability points, feats or even class levels for alternate ones basically emulates "skill degredation". If you begin to focus on something else, your other abilities fade...
(I would put some limit on class retraining: I think the first character level should be "set in stone", so that nobody ever forgets how he began...)