D&D 4E 4E wackiness escalation

hong · Sep 4, 2007

So, we know that 4E levels are being organised into 3 tiers: "heroic", "paragon" and "epic". However, I'm wondering if there's been any info yet on what the power curve for 4E will actually look like, at the top end.

To be precise, does epic in this context mean Epic Level Handbook stuff, with people creating personal demiplanes, raising 6 dead friends before breakfast, that sort of thing; or is it more a plain-English meaning of epic, ie stuff that's miraculous/world-changing. The latter definition would imply that a spell like resurrection is something that only appears at 21st+ level in 4E, even though mid-level 3E characters can cast it.

I would prefer it if was the latter, and (as far as I know) would also fit in with the objective of stretching out the sweet spot. One of the things that makes high-level 3E tricky to run is the prevalence of world-changing magic, so if they were to limit its availablility, that would go some way to satisfying that objective. OTOH, ELH-style play also has its fans, and the designers would be aware of this.

Any specifics thus far?

hong · Sep 4, 2007

WHY??? WHY DOES NOONE LISTEN TO ME??/?

Ahem.

It was pointed out that heroic/paragon/epic have been defined as

Heroic: Small villages, local level conflicts
Paragon: Kingdom level events
Epic: Planar and world shaking events.

Now that doesn't seem very specific, but the implication might be that the paragon levels will NOT involve planar/world-shaking events. Now plane shift is a 5th level 3E spell, so to achieve this, they would have to bump all such spells up by several levels. So perhaps they are using the plain-English meaning of epic here, and the rate of wackiness escalation will be much more gradual compared to 3E.

Elphilm · Sep 4, 2007

Well, I for one would love it if things worked out like that. I guess we'll just have to wait for further information.

Jer · Sep 4, 2007

hong said:
WHY??? WHY DOES NOONE LISTEN TO ME??/?

Okay, okay. I'll post something.

But it's just speculation because I certainly haven't seen any specifics posted yet.

hong said:
It was pointed out that heroic/paragon/epic have been defined as

Heroic: Small villages, local level conflicts
Paragon: Kingdom level events
Epic: Planar and world shaking events.

Now that doesn't seem very specific, but the implication might be that the paragon levels will NOT involve planar/world-shaking events. Now plane shift is a 5th level 3E spell, so to achieve this, they would have to bump all such spells up by several levels. So perhaps they are using the plain-English meaning of epic here, and the rate of wackiness escalation will be much more gradual compared to 3E.

I'd love to see easy access to planar travel spells moved to higher levels. I suspect, though, that "raise dead" type spells will still be available at "paragon" levels. After investing enough time to get a character up to 10th level, it would be a shame to lose him on a bad die roll.

deClench · Sep 4, 2007

I would love to see the "wackiness" continue. I want there to be a point when everything goes "crazy." At 30th level, I should be able to do things that a 1st level character could never dream of, not just do more damage with my sword.

Merlion · Sep 4, 2007

hong said:
So, we know that 4E levels are being organised into 3 tiers: "heroic", "paragon" and "epic". However, I'm wondering if there's been any info yet on what the power curve for 4E will actually look like, at the top end.

To be precise, does epic in this context mean Epic Level Handbook stuff, with people creating personal demiplanes, raising 6 dead friends before breakfast, that sort of thing; or is it more a plain-English meaning of epic, ie stuff that's miraculous/world-changing. The latter definition would imply that a spell like resurrection is something that only appears at 21st+ level in 4E, even though mid-level 3E characters can cast it.

I would prefer it if was the latter, and (as far as I know) would also fit in with the objective of stretching out the sweet spot. One of the things that makes high-level 3E tricky to run is the prevalence of world-changing magic, so if they were to limit its availablility, that would go some way to satisfying that objective. OTOH, ELH-style play also has its fans, and the designers would be aware of this.

Any specifics thus far?

From what little we know, I think it will be the latter. The plain english version of Epic. Or at least something close to it. A bit of "wackyness" will probably insue, but I think it wont be too excessive.

Piratecat · Sep 4, 2007

I was told (second-hand by (contact) after the D&D Q&A seminar) that the new game would take 3e's power curve of levels 4-14, and fit them in to levels 1-30. Thus you'd have more granularity and fewer steep power jumps, with more playable levels.

In other words, I'm not so sure that the top levels are going to be ridiculously epic in power.

Note that this is second-hand and unsubstantiated -- I've heard no official word on it at all.

Ashrem Bayle · Sep 4, 2007

Piratecat said:
I was told (second-hand by (contact) after the D&D Q&A seminar) that the new game would take 3e's power curve of levels 4-14, and fit them in to levels 1-30. Thus you'd have more granularity and fewer steep power jumps, with more playable levels.

In other words, I'm not so sure that the top levels are going to be ridiculously epic in power.

Note that this is second-hand and unsubstantiated -- I've heard no official word on it at all.

At first I cringed when I read that. Never again will the characters be the wimpy underdogs afraid of a kobold. Never will a fighter be afraid of an angry commoner with a knife.

But you know, I''ve made my peace with that. D&D has become a game about heroes, with no room for the average joe. And that's fine. Just like you wouldn't expect to play a game of Monopoly in 10 minutes, don't expect realism in D&D. (That's what GURPS is for.)

That said, for an over the top cinematic action romp featuring heroes who stand toe-to-toe with dragons, D&D is still going to be the cream of the crop.

deClench · Sep 4, 2007

Piratecat said:
I was told (second-hand by (contact) after the D&D Q&A seminar) that the new game would take 3e's power curve of levels 4-14, and fit them in to levels 1-30. Thus you'd have more granularity and fewer steep power jumps, with more playable levels.

In other words, I'm not so sure that the top levels are going to be ridiculously epic in power.

Note that this is second-hand and unsubstantiated -- I've heard no official word on it at all.

So the things we can do now at 14th level we'll be able to do at 30th in the new edition? Do we say goodbye to all the 8th and 9th level spells then?

That sounds horrible to me.

Ashrem Bayle · Sep 4, 2007

deClench said:
So the things we can do now at 14th level we'll be able to do at 30th in the new edition? Do we say goodbye to all the 8th and 9th level spells then?

That sounds horrible to me.

Most such spells were ridiculous anyway. No big loss as far as I'm concerned.

D&D 4E 4E wackiness escalation

hong

WotC's bitch

hong

WotC's bitch

Elphilm

Explorer

Jer

Legend

deClench

First Post

Merlion

First Post

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian

Ashrem Bayle

Explorer

deClench

First Post

Ashrem Bayle

Explorer

Similar Threads