The Terminator Paradox

MY PLAYERS STAY OUT!









OK.

So, the Terminators were built by the chip left behind by a time-travelling terminator. Chicken-and-egg kinda thing, right? I'm sort of stealing that idea for my upcoming session.

A while back, the PCs were searching out an ancient wizard called the Archivist, and found out that he was actually a Warforged. In my campaign, Warforged were created tens of thousands of years ago by the terribly cliche super-magical-but-long-dead elvish society that ruled the world. They were created with a restriction that only allows them to remember 30 years prior to "now," whenever now might be. The archivist was a warforged who sequestered himself in a tower, wrote books of everything he could remember for 30 years, and then spent thousands of years reading re-reading them, to preserve his memories.

Anyways, long story short, the PCs accidentally destroyed his tower and all his books.

They lost track of Krouto (his name), and are about to discover him shipwrecked on a deserted island. He'd been searching for the lab where the warforged were first created.

So fast forward some more, they beat the lab-dungeon, and come to the final room where they find out that the Alakari (said cliche empire) didn't invent the Warforged, they found one that had been buried for thousands of years even before their time. They just used it as a guide to build the rest... That first warforged is still in the lab... and that first warforged is Krouto!

Long dormant, "old" Krouto's eyes begin to dimly shine when "new" Krouto approaches. "Old" Krouto touches the "new" one and transfers all his memories to him...

Krouto isn't just given the memories of the lifetime of an entire world, he's given those memories many, many times over. It seems that Krouto has been waging war against Psychosis, the ill-defined world-threatening force which the PCs are currently working to stop, and has failed hundreds or even thousands of times already. Each time, Krouto created a hole in time to travel back and try again.

The catch is... he can't just use knowledge from the last time, because each time it's played out differently. Even the very nature of the beast has changed; in one timeline, Psychosis may have been a physical terror like the Terrasque, while in another, it may have been an entity of psionic energy, and in another, it was a disease. By travelling back through time, Krouto's created a "nexus of possibilities," and it's impossible to predict what will happen. All he knows is that Pychosis has assaulted the world in a variety of ways, in a variety of forms, and has never been stopped.

So... By now you're wondering what the point of this post... I kind of am too. I guess I'm worried that it feels too... story-driven. There's not a whole lot that I can do to involve the PCs, since they're all human (and a gargoyle), other than having Krouto make allusions to how he's fought beside them, and others, many times before. Even then, that's me telling the players something, doesn't really give them much of a choice in the matter.

Any ideas?

1/ Your sig is getting a bit too long.

2/ Ghostbusters. Each time Psychosis comes to town, it appears before someone (usually the PCs of course) and takes from their fears and/or imagination "the form of the destroyer". Do this bit right at the end of a session so you have time to stat up whatever it is they choose.

3/ In any battle against Fate, there are key "turning points". Warbot should know what these are, and should allow the PCs to formulate a strategy based on his knowledge of what is likely to occur. "In 84.2% of all worlds so far, the first city to fall is Bridgenose. In only 1.13% of all worlds does Lord Applebrick survive for more than three weeks. In 91.5% of all worlds the demon Baphosocks is let loose and immediately devastates the orchards around North Gullyditch. In..." You can clue them in to the gross shape of your giant flow-chart, to give them a deceptive sliver of hope in navigating it.

Cheers, -- N

The Terminator Paradox, as you name it is a common problem with the assumption of time travel into the past.

For example, suppose you travel into the past and kill your father (or other wise disrupt your birth). Well, then you will never be born, so you will cease to exist. But, if you never existed, no one travelled back into the past and killed your father, which means you should exist, right?

Let's take another example. Suppose you know how to build a computer, so you travel back into the past to invent the computer. You then discover upon examination that you invented the computer so then ultimately the person who taught you how to build a computer has been yourself all along. But this presents a problem, how did you first learn how to build a computer? The information has appeared essentially from no where. It has no genesis.

IMO, this thought experiment actually shows that its impossible to go back into your own past. If you attempt to go back into the past, what actually ends up happening is that you end up in some other person's past. You then alter that person's past so that he doesn't exist. When you go forward, you don't return to your own present. You return to the present of some other person, who - because you've prevented him from existing - is no longer there.

So old Krouto is actually wrong. The memories he has are the memories of travelling with some other parallel group of extremely similar adventurers in an extremely similar universe. Millions of Krouto's have travelled back in the past, but each was actually in a slightly different universe. In one or more universes Warforged were evented and the first warforged was not Krouto (perhaps one of these was even the universe that the PC's left initially), and in all the rest they've learned how to make Warforged from the copy that was from the future of a different universe. In all those universes, the Psychosis has won, and there is no non-Psychosis future.

DON'T TELL YOUR PLAYERS THIS. Let them think about time travel in the 'normal' paradoxical fashion that stories typically have. Only you know that it really isn't working that way. The PC's have full choice. They aren't in the universe that 'Old Krouto' comes from, and 'New Krouto', if he ever goes back into the past at all, will become stranded in some other parallel adventuring groups world thinking that those adventurers are the ones he's familiar with.

In this way, you can use the story device while limiting the amount of railroading that you are doing. The future isn't fixed. The story is driving the plot, but the PC's will create thier own story.

Now, the twist:

Celebrim said:

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Awesome stuff. The OPs idea was great, and I think this is even better.

BTW, the term for that is Ontological Paradox

Shades of Chrono Trigger. Gotta say I'm liking it.

As far as paradox resolution goes, the easy way out is the "Back to the Future" multiple timeline/universe model.

Which actually works really well with Celebrim's suggestion that the 'bot is actually the one dragging the Psychosis into each new timeline...

failed will save, can't resist

Have some one teleport to them and tell them

SAVE THE WARFOGED, SAVE THE WORLD.

I am very sorry

rk

In my Planescape campaign an evil villain traveled back in time to create himself. It wasn't a normal creation...he took tissue samples form many beings (including the PCs) and essentially created an amalgam clone. He then went on to play a pivotal role in launching the PC's adventuring careers.

Why? Because he thought it would protect him from the PCs ever coming after him. If the PCs came after him to destroy him, then they would cause a break in the predestination paradox. In other words, if the PCs destroy the villain, then the villain can't go back in time to create himself, the villain is never created, the villain never sends the PCs into the outer planes on their adventuring career, and all of the PC's good deeds in the outer planes (which included saving the multiverse a couple of times, as well as saving the lives of several gods) would be erased from the timeline, making the multiverse much worse off than if the PCs simply leave the villain alone.

How is this related to the OP's story? Well, if the warforged is the one responsible for spreading Psychosis to multiple multiverses, then a solution may be to kill the warforged and stop him from any more time travel. However, what would the repercussions be to the PC's multiverse if the original warforged is killed? There would have been no other warforged created, and whatever good the warforged have done in the PC's world would have been erased as well. The warforged will be wiped out, as a race.

So, will the PC's be willing to kill the original warforged, committing genocide, and drastically alter (or even destroy) their own world so that other worlds/multiverses might be saved?

BTW, the idea of having countless other PC parties appearing at the same time in a great battle reminds me of that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Worf is bouncing from universe to universe. Thousands of Enterprises (and their crews) appear, each slightly (or drastically) different from the one we know. If the OP ends up doing a similar battle, then a fun thing to do could be to have the PCs see slightly (and drastically) different versions of themselves (e.g. Grog the male half-orc is pretty darn cute hot as a halfling woman....).

Later,

Atavar

Atavar said:

In my Planescape campaign an evil villain traveled back in time to create himself. It wasn't a normal creation...he took tissue samples form many beings (including the PCs) and essentially created an amalgam clone. He then went on to play a pivotal role in launching the PC's adventuring careers.

Why? Because he thought it would protect him from the PCs ever coming after him. If the PCs came after him to destroy him, then they would cause a break in the predestination paradox. In other words, if the PCs destroy the villain, then the villain can't go back in time to create himself, the villain is never created, the villain never sends the PCs into the outer planes on their adventuring career, and all of the PC's good deeds in the outer planes (which included saving the multiverse a couple of times, as well as saving the lives of several gods) would be erased from the timeline, making the multiverse much worse off than if the PCs simply leave the villain alone.

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Heh. It's a good bluff, but if my explanation of events is correct, then the evil villain has made a big miscalculation. At some future point, the villain went back and launched the adventuring careers of a PC party. He now reasons that the PC's can't kill him, because then he won't be able to return to start the parties careers. Where he is mistaken is that he's now no longer in the timeline he originally left. He's not in his own past. So nothing he does now in this past will prevent his future self from a different future coming to this past and createing this PC party. Even if he remembers a PC party not killing him, this PC party could still kill him and all that would happen is that this version of himself wouldn't create the PC party in a different universe.

No causality loop is actually taking place. It just appears to be a causality loop to the time traveller because the parallel universes he is entering are so similar as to be indistinguishable.

How is this related to the OP's story? Well, if the warforged is the one responsible for spreading Psychosis to multiple multiverses, then a solution may be to kill the warforged and stop him from any more time travel. However, what would the repercussions be to the PC's multiverse if the original warforged is killed? There would have been no other warforged created, and whatever good the warforged have done in the PC's world would have been erased as well. The warforged will be wiped out, as a race.

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It's concievable that Krouto may initially believe something like this, but if the explanation I've given is adopted, he would be wrong.

Here is the actual timeline:

A) 'Krouto A' is created in a universe where warforged are invented by an Alakari empire. Krouto doesn't know how warforged came to be, as the secret is lost in the distant past.
B) Krouto time travels into the past of a different universe (universe B), and becomes the inspiration for warforged in that universe's Alakari empire. Otherwise this universe is very similar to Krouto's original universe, so in time Krouto B is created.
C) Krouto B meets Krouto A. Krouto A mistakes Krouto B for his past self because of the great similarities between the two universes, and tells Krouto A that he is his future self.
D) Krouto A time travels into the past believing that he is predestined to do so. He is now in universe C, where events B, C and D repeat (notably the OP gives a big clue that they don't repeat exactly). Each new Krouto is pushed over into the adjoining universe by the repeated time travel, but each believes that they have travelled into thier own past.
E) Krouto X is killed before travelling to the past. Since it is Krouto A from the root universe of these knowledge that initiated the invention of the Warforged, mysteriously (from the perspective of some that understands time less well than a Time Lord), nothing immediately happens. Krouto V has already arrived in the past of this universe, with the Pyschosis and with the knowledge that will allow the invention of warforged in this universe. Preventing Krouto X from going back into the past doesn't change that. However, the chain is broken and many many universes that might otherwise have been infected are saved. However, the Psychosis, already having arrived through the agency of Krouto V still must be stopped in this universe and all the universes which it has previously spread to.

BTW, the idea of having countless other PC parties appearing at the same time in a great battle reminds me of that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Worf is bouncing from universe to universe. Thousands of Enterprises (and their crews) appear, each slightly (or drastically) different from the one we know. If the OP ends up doing a similar battle, then a fun thing to do could be to have the PCs see slightly (and drastically) different versions of themselves (e.g. Grog the male half-orc is pretty darn cute hot as a halfling woman....).

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That's sort of the idea. I figure that the root universe is not unique, and that thousands or millions of variants of Krouto A have initiated this chain of events of hopping around in many universes in paralllel. (Hense, literally billions of universes have been effected.) Likewise if the Psychosis can be stopped at all, in thousands or millions of those universes, a PC party very similar to our heroes destined to put a stop to the madness exists.

I don't know enough of Psychosis and the PCs history with it (him?) to know if this would work, and your players might not respond well to this, so with that disclaimer...

Krouto explains to the PCs that there are certain nexus events that have preceeded Psychosis victories in other timelines: The capture of Macguffin A, the assasination of the hier to Kingdom X, the destruction of Macguffin B etc. Come up with a list of a couple dozen. The PCs need to determine which of these events might occur and the PCs could possibly prevent from happening. Through some work they can eliminate several of the choices - e.g. Macguffin A, which needs to be captured by Psychosis, was destroyed 80 years ago in this timeline. If possible link some of the events to past adventures of the PCs - sometimes for good, sometimes for ill. With the list whittled down to just a few possibilities, the PCs need to decide which they will try to prevent and when.

Krouto (I keep wanting to type Crouton) and Psychosis are a linked pair. Psychosis has always been on the brink of victory when Krouto jumps back in time. When he does that, he pulls Psychosis back as well, who starts over again in another universe. If the players succeed in their chosen nexus adventures, they will have a chance to defeat Psychosis, but no matter what it will be a difficult final battle. Some time before they win, Krouto will panic, believing they will lose and will attempt to jump back in time once again. This will end the threat of Psychosis in the PCs universe because he will be hauled back into the past of another universe again, but with Psychosis not actually being defeated, his forces will battle on, leading to a bleak existence. If the PCs can stop Krouto from jumping back in time, and can truly defeat Psychosis, the hold on his forces will be broken, and rebuilding can begin.

Nifft said:

1/ Your sig is getting a bit too long.

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You've just got sig envy. Eh, maybe I should get rid of the "which color are you" thing.

2/ Ghostbusters. Each time Psychosis comes to town, it appears before someone (usually the PCs of course) and takes from their fears and/or imagination "the form of the destroyer". Do this bit right at the end of a session so you have time to stat up whatever it is they choose.

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Not a bad idea, especially since I haven't even fully decided what Psychosis is yet!

3/ In any battle against Fate, there are key "turning points". Warbot should know what these are, and should allow the PCs to formulate a strategy based on his knowledge of what is likely to occur. "In 84.2% of all worlds so far, the first city to fall is Bridgenose. In only 1.13% of all worlds does Lord Applebrick survive for more than three weeks. In 91.5% of all worlds the demon Baphosocks is let loose and immediately devastates the orchards around North Gullyditch. In..." You can clue them in to the gross shape of your giant flow-chart, to give them a deceptive sliver of hope in navigating it.

Cheers, -- N

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Now that's a really awesome idea. Kind of makes me think of Chrononauts.

Celebrim said:

IMO, this thought experiment actually shows that its impossible to go back into your own past. If you attempt to go back into the past, what actually ends up happening is that you end up in some other person's past. You then alter that person's past so that he doesn't exist. When you go forward, you don't return to your own present. You return to the present of some other person, who - because you've prevented him from existing - is no longer there.

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That's something that I'm both completely aware of (there are a few exceptions, but I find most time-travel based stories unbearable) and completely okay with (don't know why, but the ontological paradox has always seemed really cool to me).

If this sounds a little too Epic for you (what's the CR of a multiuniverse planar eating monstrousity, anyway?), there is an easy out. Whenever the PC's use to book to leave the infinite universes, millions of other similar but perhaps slightly different PC's from other universes will do the same thing. Most will shout in unison that which they've discovered, "We all have to win at the same time. If any of us loses or retreats, we will all lose." and then each will have to face its own CR 28 (or whatever suits you) portion of the vast Psychosis.

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Despite my love of a true ontological paradox, I'm pretty tempted to go with your explanation just for this ending! One thing that I think might be really cool is to steal a page from Teen Titans (and, yeah, I'm sure they weren't the first ); the titans had to fight doppelgangers of themselves and were unable to beat them... until they came up with the idea of everyone fighting someone else's doppelganger. So my group is very low on arcane might; maybe their "psychosis" can only be harmed with spells and is nigh invulnerable physically. Another psychosis, on the other hand, is just the opposite...

Thornir Alekeg said:

Krouto (I keep wanting to type Crouton) and Psychosis are a linked pair. Psychosis has always been on the brink of victory when Krouto jumps back in time. When he does that, he pulls Psychosis back as well, who starts over again in another universe. If the players succeed in their chosen nexus adventures, they will have a chance to defeat Psychosis, but no matter what it will be a difficult final battle. Some time before they win, Krouto will panic, believing they will lose and will attempt to jump back in time once again. This will end the threat of Psychosis in the PCs universe because he will be hauled back into the past of another universe again, but with Psychosis not actually being defeated, his forces will battle on, leading to a bleak existence. If the PCs can stop Krouto from jumping back in time, and can truly defeat Psychosis, the hold on his forces will be broken, and rebuilding can begin.

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Not a bad idea, but you're thinking of time wrong... Assuming the final battle always happens at the same moment, and Krouto always jumps back 10,000 years at the same moment, then 10,000 years after he jumps isn't 10,000 years after he jumps at all-- it's the same time! All those battles are going on simultaneously!