D&D 4E 4E: Darkvision and Low-light vision

blargney the second · Sep 20, 2007

Moon-Lancer said:
low light vision is easy with torches, but not so much with star light. A low light creature sees in starlight, as if it were day, but i don't know what rules to use for creatures without low light vision in starlight.

Shadowy illumination.

GreatLemur · Sep 20, 2007

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
At this point, doesn't everything in 3E except for a few PHB races have darkvision?

I think there are literally about two creature types that don't get darkvision or low light vision by default. One of them is Humanoid. The other one is Ooze, which gets freaking blindsight, anyway. Plants have low-light vision. It's really pretty absurd.

Irda Ranger · Sep 20, 2007

And someone with Darkvision can see perfectly in the dark, but only up to 60 feet?

That never made any sense to me either. I just let them see normally, but in black and white only.

Moon-Lancer said:
low light vision is easy with torches,

Agreed. I've never had a problem figuring out 'range of light' for torches, etc. when underground. Just double it for LLV types. I also liked how in C&C you had "dusk vision" (for gnomes, I think) which doubled the range of light sources and "starlight vision" (for elves) which tripled them.

Moon-Lancer said:
i don't know what rules to use for creatures without low light vision in starlight.

Me neither. I just give 'em a penalty to Spot and certain other skills, as I feel appropriate, depending on how dark it is, situational contrast contrast and whether / how much time they've had for their eyes to adjust. Starting with "shadowy illumination" is usually good.

Regular humans can see really well with "just starlight", actually, but only in situations where they have not been exposed to any artificial sources of light for at least a couple hours. Since that pretty much never happens in the modern world (large cities throw light for hundreds of miles in every direction), many people don't realize just how sensitive the eyes can be, or how bright the stars can be. In pre-modern times you could see "your shadows" (plural) on moonless nights, because both Jupiter and the Milky Way were bright enough to make them.

Mercule · Sep 20, 2007

I hope they get rid of darkvision almost entirely. If it's still there, I really think it needs a range, but it could be pretty extreme (100'+). But, I really, really have grown to hate darkvision.

Most things that have darkvision should have low light and most things that currently have low light should see normally.

Nyeshet · Sep 21, 2007

Dark Vision is a nice idea - in extreme moderation.

Outsiders and aberrations having it I can see, so to speak.

For all other creature types, however, it should be virtually unknown.

Exceptional fey, rare magical beasts, some undead - these I can understand having it. But most others should not have it.

As for Low Light Vision - give it to most animals and magical beasts, fey, perhaps giants, and some exceptional monstrous humanoids (but not all or even most monstrous humanoids). I can't see the point in giving it to most other creature types.

I've always been of the opinion that constructs and undead should have magical senses rather than enhanced non-magical ones.

Loincloth of Armour · Sep 21, 2007

I hope they get rid of dark vision for three reasons:

1) The moment you bring humans (or halflings) along as part of your party, the group needs a light source. At that point, dark vision in the party becomes (mostly) useless, because as a DM (or a player) I have other things to spend my time thinking about than, "Can I see anything beyond the radius of the torch light."

2) It makes sneaking rogues pretty useless, as how does a low level human rogue sneak through a dungeon when those who dwell in the dungeon don't need light. I know there are work-arounds, but they all are slightly meta-gamey.

3) DM: "The figure is cloaked in shadows from the building, hiding its true form from your eyes."

Player; "I have dark vision, I can see it clearly."

DM: &$#@!! So much for atmosphere!

lkjopajdowma · Sep 21, 2007

Loincloth of Armour said:
I hope they get rid of dark vision for three reasons:

1) The moment you bring humans (or halflings) along as part of your party, the group needs a light source.

*snip*

Hell, you need one for any race with even LLV if you're venturing into a pitch black cave/dungeon/what-have-you.

frankthedm · Sep 21, 2007

Switch all player races and most monster to low light vision. Let a few of the weirder and subterranean creatures have darkvision, but keep them few and far between.

Stalker0 · Sep 21, 2007

Light sourcing is something I hope they seriously streamline in 4e. Counting the squares, determining shadowy light, etc is all tedious and boring.

I say:

1) Normal Vision: Unless there is a lot of light in the room, then you have 20% concealment (or the 4e equivalent).

2) Low Light: As long as there is faint line in the room, you can see just fine.

3) Dark Vision: You can see in the dark...period.

Basically make the visions more powerful, but also ensure that its factored in when races get there abilities.

Li Shenron · Sep 21, 2007

RigaMortus2 said:
I am wondering if these vision types are going to go the way of Saga. In Saga, Darkvision and low-light do not have ranges. They just give you normal vision using that sight. So if a person with normal sight could see things a mile away when looking across a barren field in the middle of the day, a person with Darkvision would see the same thing if it was pitch black.

...and what happens to low-light vision?