Devices in Arrays

Rystil and HoV could you take your Character Discussion to another thread? As most of it does not apply to this Proposal.

rgordona said:

Another contentious issue concerning arrays which I think should be formalised.

Proposal: Individual slots within an Array may not be given the Device flaw.

This appears to be legal according to RAW but it is very unclear what happens when a device which is also an AP is removed from a character. Who can use the device? Can the character still use the other slots in their array? To save this confusion I propose they not be permitted.

This is not to say that a Device can not contain an Array, (eg a blaster with multiple settings or a car that turns into a battle suit) but a Array should not contain a Device.

Characters with Devices within Arrays: Circe; Gun Monkey, Mecha Musume

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I feel Devices can have arrays (a Gun with different settings) But an array should not have a Device as part of it. So I vote YES

I vote YES

Vote: Yes a device should not be part of an array.

Which passes the proposal.

Although I am not altogether sure what to do with it now as it effects approved characters. I guess it should go in the Character creation thread.

IMO, the fair thing to do would be to have players who currently have characters with this re-create/re-submit them under the new rules. If they were allowed to keep them, then any new players who come in might feel cheated when they see other people doing things they cannot. (Well, maybe 'cheated' isn't the proper word, but at least 'put off'.)

Hand of Vecna said:

IMO, the fair thing to do would be to have players who currently have characters with this re-create/re-submit them under the new rules. If they were allowed to keep them, then any new players who come in might feel cheated when they see other people doing things they cannot. (Well, maybe 'cheated' isn't the proper word, but at least 'put off'.)

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Ah, but this is a sticking point--you either risk offending hypothetical new players or else you take a guarantee of it for real known current players.

On the other hand, you needn't include me in that list: I'm very excited about the new build for Sierra that you and I came up with because it's basically perfect in every way based on how I see it, so assuming that the judges approve that, I personally won't have an issue (still leaving others, though, of course). On the other hand, if I didn't have such a backup plan, that would be a dealbreaker for me because it has a potential to totally rip apart the character and destroy it--you might wind up with something that you just don't want to play anymore. I feel really bad for the player of Mecha Musume, for instance. And if somehow the new build for Sierra with the Devices outside the alt array and an alt to use magical energy to boost the device is rejected, I may be stuck in the same boat (I assume not, though, since it fixes the problems).

Only "guaranteed" if the player is stubborn and unwilling to work with us. We (the Judges) are trying to make things more-or-less balanced/fair and not overly complicated, hence the generation of these House Rules.

Gun Monkey can easily be fixed by removing the "Another Gun" alternate power and using that 1pp to get a Feature (being disarmed once removes Autofire extra; it takes two disarm attempts to completely disarm him of his guns).

I'm still not entirely sure this would apply to Mecha Musmue, since Metamorph isn't an Array power, it's a completely alternate character sheet/alternate "you." Then again, the questions of "so what happens when a foe takes your weapon in one form -- will she have the weapon in another form? Or not? And what if the stolen weapon has a different pp cost from the weapon of the new form she takes?" do arise, so it probably would be best to re-work those) D. Shaffer does need to give us stats for Mecha Musume's non-armored, Normal Identity form, though. And her Morph/Metamorph powerset may need to be reworked a bit, too -- there's a character in Paragons that sorta does what she does and it might be good to look at how they stat up those changes ( think they did it cheaper there than what she's got here).

I (personally) don't see how Sierra losing her two Devices would "totally rip apart" and "destroy" her, since neither Device was present in her original (150pp) build, and one was IIRC added in at the (somewhat off-handed) suggestion of another. You may find other requested changes to be deal-breakers... but this is not the thread for that, as I will in the very near future be starting a new thread specifically for assorted "who needs to be re-built and why" stuff (and I don't want Hero4Hire poking in and admonishing us to stay on-topic ).

I (personally) don't see how Sierra losing her two Devices would "totally rip apart" and "destroy" her

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Ah--potential is the key word. I tried (and failed due to bad word choice) to make it clear that I don't include myself on the list of people whose characters would be ripped apart and destroyed. I think Mecha Musume may be so if you eliminate alts in alts and devices in alts (and the Metamorph option of Morph is like having an entire alt character, so it's even more extreme than just one alt power).

As to the unspecified potential dealbreakers for Sierra, you may be right. I certainly hope not.

Hand of Vecna said:

I'm still not entirely sure this would apply to Mecha Musmue, since Metamorph isn't an Array power, it's a completely alternate character sheet/alternate "you." Then again, the questions of "so what happens when a foe takes your weapon in one form -- will she have the weapon in another form? Or not? And what if the stolen weapon has a different pp cost from the weapon of the new form she takes?" do arise, so it probably would be best to re-work those) D. Shaffer does need to give us stats for Mecha Musume's non-armored, Normal Identity form, though. And her Morph/Metamorph powerset may need to be reworked a bit, too -- there's a character in Paragons that sorta does what she does and it might be good to look at how they stat up those changes ( think they did it cheaper there than what she's got here).

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I've been sorta wondering what I needed to do myself. I've been holding off on making any changes until I saw the results of this and the other proposal as they both effected my character.

I dont have Paragons so I have no idea what they did there, can you sum it up? As is, I'm thinking I might just skip the entire shebang and vastly simplify the character by just making it a shapeshift pool. The only reason I went with metamorph to begin with was to have a 'stock list' of powers so no one had to judge it on the fly.