The Hoplite (think Spartan, Greek, Roman)

Tyonisius

First Post
I haven't finished it's design yet but I'm working on a prestige class of similar nature to the Hoplites. I was wondering if anyone knows of a website that addresses a point system used to create Prestige Classes. Once I finish it I'll post it here and see what you all think of the class and whether it is too powerful or possibly to weak. Thanks for your help. Oh yeah, this is my first time posting so, hello to all.


~Tyonisius


Ok, here is the PrC thus far. It's still in the works so let me know what you think please as well as any changes you think should be made.

The Hoplite

Requirements:
Alignment: Any lawful.
Jump: 8 Ranks
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Weapon Focus (Longspear, Glaive, Ranseur, Duom, or Greatspear), Weapon Specialization(Longspear, Glaive, Ranseur, Duom, or Greatspear), Skill Focus (jump). (Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in another polearm-type weapon can be allowed at GM's discretion).
Special: The ability to use large weapons (in this case reach polearms) one handed. This can be through a feat such as Monkey Grip or through a racial ability(such as the Goliath's).

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Same as fighters, minus ride, plus intimidate, knowledge(warfare), profession(soldier), and wilderness lore.

Skill Point Gain: 4+Int Modifier




Code:
      [B] Base
       Attack   Fort    Ref     Will
[U]Level  Bonus    Save    Save    Save    Special[/U][/B]
1	+1	+2	+0	+0	Adaptive Polearm, Fearless Resolve, 
2	+2	+3	+0	+0	Impressive Leg Strength
3	+3	+3	+1	+1	Fleet of Foot, Gouge
4	+4	+4	+1	+1	Leaping Thrust, Shield Wall
5	+5	+4	+1	+1	Fleet of Foot(+5ft.), Soldier's Fortune
6	+6	+5	+2	+2	Spinning Polearm
7	+7	+5	+2	+2	Fleet of Foot(+10ft.), Shield Ally
8	+8	+6	+2	+2	Improved Gouge
9	+9	+6	+3	+3	Fleet of Foot(+15ft.)
10	+10	+7	+3	+3	Mighty Spinning Polearm

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Hoplite gains no additional weapon, armor, or shield proficiencies. His offensive abilities do not function with any weapon other than a polearm-type weapon (chosen at the DM’s discretion). None of the Hoplite's abilities work while wearing anything heavier than light armor (medium armor made of mithral still counts as light for this purpose).

Adaptive Polearm: Due to his extensive training in his polearm weapon, the Hoplite can use the polearm weapon he has weapon focus and weapon specialization in to attack enemies in adjacent squares.

Gouge: A Hoplite has the ability to bleed a creature damaged by her polearm weapon by twisting it once it has struck an opponent during an attack. The Hoplite can use this skillful attack once per round, but no more than once per level per day. The Hoplite must declare that she is using a gouge attack before making the attack roll (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt). A foe struck by the Hoplite is forced to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC10 + the number of Hoplite levels + Strength modifier), in addition to receiving normal damage. If the saving throw fails, the opponent suffers damage equal to the Hoplite’s Strength modifier for a number of rounds equal to her Hoplite levels. The effects of gouge do not stack, an additional gouge on an opponent already affected by gouge would only reset the amount of time that the gouge lasts for. A Hoplite can only gouge a living creature with a discernable anatomy--undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creature lack blood to loose.

Improved Gouge: This increases the damage of the gouge ability to 2x the Strength modifier.

Impressive Leg Strength: This ability allows the Hoplite to add double his strength modifier to his jump checks instead of the usual + Str Modifier that the skill uses.

Fearless Resolve: Beginning at level 3, the Hoplite is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Fleet of Foot: Due to the nature of the Hoplite, having to travel from battle to battle on foot, the speed of the Hoplite is increased. At level 3 this grants the Hoplite the Run Feat. Every 2 levels there after it increases the Hoplites movement speed by +5 feet.

Leaping Thrust: As part of a charge, the Hoplite can jump at the opponent and thrust his polearm at the end of the charge. This attack deals additional damage based upon the roll on the Jump Check and a -2 to AC of the Hoplite in addition to the normal benefits and disadvantages to charging (therefore the Hoplite would gain a +2 to attack bonus and a -4 to AC). If the Hoplite's jump check result is a 20 or less the Leaping Thrust is unsuccessful and the attack roll automatically misses but the Hoplite still suffers the minus to AC. A roll of 21-25 deals an additional 1d6 damage, 26-30 deals an addition 2d6 damage, etc. This damage occurs even if the creature is not normally affected by critical hits, sneak attack, etc. due to the fact that the extra damage is due to the momentum of the attack (forward and falling) and not due to hitting a critical area. This charge must be done in a straight line, despite any other feats the Hoplite may have that allows him to turn. See the chart below for clarification.

Code:
Jump Skill
[U]Check (DC)     Bonus Damage[/U]
   21-25          1d6
   26-30          2d6
   31-35          3d6
   36-40          4d6
   41-45          5d6
   46-50          6d6
   51-55          7d6
   56-60          8d6

Soldier's Fortune: At level 5, a Hoplite applies her Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus to all saving throws. This bonus does not stack with the Divine Grace ability of the Paladin or similar abilities.

Twirling Polearm: This ability functions just as the whirlwind feat as long as the Hoplite is wielding a polearm even if the Hoplite does not meet the prerequisites for Whirlwind.

Mighty Twirling Polearm: Before I state what this skill does I want to put a picture in your mind. When I see a Hoplite performing a whirlwind attack with his polearm I see him grabbing it near the end of the shaft and twirling it, slightly above his head with the weapon angled downward, so the blade would bite at the enemies surrounding the Hoplite. This feat functions like a Whirlwind attack combined with a Bull Rush attempt in theory. Basically, he twirls the weapon above his head in a whirlwind attack, and those stuck by the weapon roll opposed strength checks to determine whether the enemy is pushed back one square (5 ft.) by the attack. Unlike with a normal Bull Rush attempt, this move does not provoke an attack of opportunity. (If you can think of a better way to do something like this, perhaps with a different check, maybe a will save since a guy spinning a polearm around in a big circle is kinda scary? Let me know.)

Shield Wall: This functions as the feat of the same name but only with other Hoplites who have gained this feat. (I was under the impression that this was already a feat somewhere. If you know where, please let me know. If it's not I'll add a description for it.)

Shield Ally: As a standard action, the Hoplite can guard an adjacent ally with his shield. In effect the Hoplite would state that he is Shielding his ally during his turn. This grants the Hoplite's shield bonus to the ally's armor class, stacking with any shield the ally is carrying, until the Hoplite's next turn. The Hoplite loses his shield bonus to his AC until his next turn. Neither the Hoplite nor the ally can move or the affects of the Shield Ally ability are canceled (the Hoplite still does not regain his shield bonus until his next turn).
 
Last edited:

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Quartz

Hero
The one-handed spear that the Spartans used isn't a reach weapon, so Adaptive Polearm should be the other way around.

Soldier's Fortune is a bit good to get all in one go. Perhaps change the saves to all good, like the monk? Or make it +1 per level, to the limit of the stat bonus. Also, what type of bonus does it grant? Would it stack with a Paladin's Divine Grace, for instance?

Gouge doesn't feel right - the damage shouldn't be continuing unless it also uses the Spartan's attack action. It's also much more powerful than the corresponding Duellist ability. Granted the latter doesn't have a saving throw. I'd suggest dropping Gouge and adding some shield abilities.

Improved Skill Focus: a very weak ability. The class gives skill points anyway.

Fleet of foot: why not simply grant the Run feat?

In all, a very good start.
 

Goobermunch

Explorer
You're missing an important part of what made the spartans effective: the phalanx. Spartan warriors need the shield wall feat or something similar.
 

Tyonisius

First Post
Quartz said:
The one-handed spear that the Spartans used isn't a reach weapon, so Adaptive Polearm should be the other way around.

The spear that the Spartan Hoplites (which may be what I change the name of this class to) was between 7 and 9 feet in length. Now if you are referring to the spear used in the 300 movie, I don't remember, it may have been more of a short spear.

Quartz said:
Soldier's Fortune is a bit good to get all in one go. Perhaps change the saves to all good, like the monk? Or make it +1 per level, to the limit of the stat bonus. Also, what type of bonus does it grant? Would it stack with a Paladin's Divine Grace, for instance?

I was thinking of it being pretty much the same as divine grace. With that in mind, it would not stack with Divine Grace (getting your Charisma bonus twice to all saves is definately a bit much). It would be an unnamed bonus like Divine Grace. I was going to look into using a different stat and changing the name of it, but I don't want to use a stat that already has a use in savings throws which rules at Con, Wis, and Dex. And since this classes ability already uses Str for the gouge ability I don't want to make it Str. Which leaves Charisma and Intelligence... Charisma just seemed to fit better to me. I'm not using all good saves like the monk because I think that would end up just as powerful or more so than having the Soldier's Fortune ability since the Spartan Hoplite will already need good Strength and Constitution, having a decent Charisma will only add to the savings throws. If it doesn't stack with divine grace (which I'm going to add) I think it makes it an acceptable ability. To get Soldier's Fortune you'd have to be at least level 10 where as a Paladin gets the same ability under a different name at level 1.

Quartz said:
Gouge doesn't feel right - the damage shouldn't be continuing unless it also uses the Spartan's attack action. It's also much more powerful than the corresponding Duellist ability. Granted the latter doesn't have a saving throw. I'd suggest dropping Gouge and adding some shield abilities.

I didn't describe it properly and I'll probably go back in a bit and edit, but gouge is basically the Spartan Hoplite twisiting his spear after thrusting it into an opponent. That would cause the wound to bleed moreso than a normal wound would. I'll address the shield abilities statement a bit further down. Also, what book is the Duelist in so I can take a look at it if you don't mind.

Quartz said:
Improved Skill Focus: a very weak ability. The class gives skill points anyway.

I agree, I was thinking of either doing as you said, and doing away with it, or instead allowing the Spartan Hoplite to add double his strength modifier to his jump checks instead of just the normal + str modifier that all classes get.

Quartz said:
Fleet of foot: why not simply grant the Run feat?

This is a good idea, however, I wouldn't add it in place of Fleet of Foot but instead add it in addition to and perhaps weaken Fleet of Foot. The reason for this is mainly because I wanted the increased movement speed to be useful in combat (similar to the Barbarian's and Scout's Fast Movement or the Monks increase in movement speed but to a lesser degree.

Quartz said:
In all, a very good start.

I'm glad that you think it's a good start. I'm going to make the listed changes in a bit I think so give me a few minutes and then tell me what you think again. I agree with the shield feats. A shield wall feat would be neat, but since Hoplites trained together extensively and not with skirmishers or other soldiers I'd say the feat only works while side by side with another Hoplite with the feat. I'm not 100% sure how this feat works now because I'm not sure what book it's in. I guessing that it basically requires that the adjacent ally have the shield wall feat. I was thinking of a Shield Ally feat which grants the AC bonus of the shield to an adjacent ally to the left of the hoplite (stacking with any the ally may already have) since for the most part the Hoplite shielded the soldier to his left.
 

Quartz

Hero
Tyonisius said:
The spear that the Spartan Hoplites (which may be what I change the name of this class to) was between 7 and 9 feet in length.

Yes, but you hold it near the middle for balance. Unless you wield it two-handed. A full-action lunge to get reach would be entirely appropriate.
 

Meeki

First Post
The class looks alright but some of your abilities need clarifying and/or rewording. Also the duelist is in the DMG. Just one thing that is missing from all of your abilities is if they are Ex, Su, Sp.

First note I want to make is why he doesn't have an ability to use a reach weapon one handed? He has some shield abilities but will not be able to weild a shield. Maybe make it so the class is spear based and he gains the ability to use a spear and long spear 1 handed. It restricts his weapon choice to these simple weapons but he gains alot of cool abilities to make up for it.

Gouge: Fun ability, has the potential to do alot of damage though. At level 13 when you get improved gouge it will probably now do 10 damage for 8 rounds for 80 points of damage. 10 damage is alot of damage but nothing too outrageous. Might want to put that it only works on creatures that can bleed (or just use the sneak attack text, which limits it a bit more). People sometimes try to cheese things out just because it doesnt say it wont work. Also when you say how many times and how you can use it maybe say he can use it once a round as part of an attack and a number of times equal to his class level.

Fleet of Foot: In the chart just put the new total bonus to movement ot make it easier to figure out.

Leaping Thrust: This needs to be reworded to use DC's rather than what he rolls and maybe have it say as part of a charge he may perform a leaping thrust. Maybe make a small chart or something saying that a jump check under DC20 fails, DC21-26 d6, etc. The way you have it worded is awkward. You also use the term spear instead of polearm.

Greater Leaping Thrust: Needs to be clarified. Is it +1d6 for all the different DC categories or is it double?

Soldier's Fortune: Random? After you said it does not stack with paladin's divine grace you can put or any similar bonus. This is supernatural also.

Shield Wall: Where is this feat from?

Shield Ally: Needs to be reworded. Have to take out left hand side since there is no facing in D&D and the hoplite could technically rotate anyway he seems fit to have anyone be on the left hand side. Use the term adjacent ally. Reword it so it says as a standard action the hoplite may ....

Overall this class seems fine. I'm not 100% sure on its power but since its essentially limited to light armor it's probably not over powerul. However being able to use any polearm rather than just a spear may be an issue.
 

Quartz

Hero
Tyonisius said:
I didn't describe it properly and I'll probably go back in a bit and edit, but gouge is basically the Spartan Hoplite twisiting his spear after thrusting it into an opponent. That would cause the wound to bleed moreso than a normal wound would. I'll address the shield abilities statement a bit further down. Also, what book is the Duelist in so I can take a look at it if you don't mind.

Sorry, hit Submit too soon.

Duellist is in the SRD - it's a Prestige Class. There's a feat in PHB2 called something like Flay which you might like to investigate.

I'm still very leery of your Soldier's Fortune ability granting the full bonus straight off. I'm thinking about how it could be abused. Specifically by a Fighter / Knight, for whom Cha is a prime ability. And I would most definitely name the type of bonus. I hate unnamed bonuses. Perhaps an alternative would be to grant Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Mettle, and the Improved versions gradually over the levels? Given the armour restrictions, these would not be inappropriate.

On reflection, the class as is is reasonably balanced. A spear-optimised fighter only loses the ability to wear heavy armour but gains abilities instead of feats and gets better skill points, Knights and Barbarians drop their ability progressions and 1 HP / level in return. That's about right.
 

Spartans!!!

Meeki said:
First note I want to make is why he doesn't have an ability to use a reach weapon one handed? He has some shield abilities but will not be able to weild a shield. Maybe make it so the class is spear based and he gains the ability to use a spear and long spear 1 handed. It restricts his weapon choice to these simple weapons but he gains alot of cool abilities to make up for it.
This gets my vote. This prestige class should possess puissance with javelins and spears that no other class can touch. A halberd-wielding Spartan totally kills the image for me.

Are you trying to reproduce the "300" Spartans from the movie or the historical ones? Historical Spartans wore heavy armor and used the equivalent of tower shields and didn't jump around. Staying in formation was the cornerstone of their success (being Lawful helps too). Whereas the "300" Spartans fought in speedos, helms, and large shields with lots of jumping. But note that even in the movie, they had their greatest losses when they broke rank. Personally, I'd grant them tower shield and heavy armor proficiencies and kill the jumping abilities. And increase the bonuses to fighting in formation.

But then how fun is it to be the only Spartan in the group when your special abilities work best only with other Spartans? :(
 

Tyonisius

First Post
Meeki said:
The class looks alright but some of your abilities need clarifying and/or rewording. Also the duelist is in the DMG. Just one thing that is missing from all of your abilities is if they are Ex, Su, Sp.

I'll look into stating what type of abilities they are in the near future. I'll need to read up on the differences between them first.

Meeki said:
First note I want to make is why he doesn't have an ability to use a reach weapon one handed? He has some shield abilities but will not be able to weild a shield. Maybe make it so the class is spear based and he gains the ability to use a spear and long spear 1 handed. It restricts his weapon choice to these simple weapons but he gains alot of cool abilities to make up for it.

I didn't give him the ability to use a polearm one handed because I didn't feel it was 100% necessary. If you want him to use it 1 handed you would get a feet like Monkey Grip, I think. Which, I believe though could be wrong, would allow the character to wield a large weapon one handed with a -2 to the attack roll (this is what I'm doing with the Spartan Hoplite I am making. But I believe this class could be really well used using the polearm two handed and not using a shield at all, foregoing the shield abilities. I may make monkey grip or a similar ability/feat a requirement for this class.

Meeki said:
Gouge: Fun ability, has the potential to do alot of damage though. At level 13 when you get improved gouge it will probably now do 10 damage for 8 rounds for 80 points of damage. 10 damage is alot of damage but nothing too outrageous. Might want to put that it only works on creatures that can bleed (or just use the sneak attack text, which limits it a bit more). People sometimes try to cheese things out just because it doesnt say it wont work. Also when you say how many times and how you can use it maybe say he can use it once a round as part of an attack and a number of times equal to his class level.

10 damage for 8 rounds, or 80 damage total is a lot, but I've noticed that in most campaigns I've played in, the battle is over before 10 rounds have passed. I agree with the only works on creature that can bleed. As to saying how many times it can use it and adding your sugestiong of "say he can use it once a round as part of an attack and a number of times equal to his class level." I think I pretty much said the same thing, with "A Spartan Hoplite has the ability to bleed a creature damaged by her polearm weapon by twisting it once it has been thrust into an opponent. The Spartan Hoplite can use this skillful attack once per round, but no more than once per level per day." Its worded very similarly to the Stunning Attack of the Monk.



Meeki said:
Fleet of Foot: In the chart just put the new total bonus to movement ot make it easier to figure out.

Agreed, I'll add that shortly.

Meeki said:
Leaping Thrust: This needs to be reworded to use DC's rather than what he rolls and maybe have it say as part of a charge he may perform a leaping thrust. Maybe make a small chart or something saying that a jump check under DC20 fails, DC21-26 d6, etc. The way you have it worded is awkward. You also use the term spear instead of polearm.

I'll add a chart to it to make it easier to understand. To some degree it already uses DC's I just worded a little different than I guess people are used to. The chart I'll make sure clarify things, thanks for pointing out the fact that I used spear instead of polearm, I'll fix this. When I stated "When performing a charge attack" I meant that it was done as the attack portion of the charge but I'll reword it a bit to make it easier to understand hopefully.

Meeki said:
Greater Leaping Thrust: Needs to be clarified. Is it +1d6 for all the different DC categories or is it double?

I'll see if I can reword this, the chart I am going to make for Leaping Thrust should make this easier to understand. Basically its a gain of +1d6 per DC category. Meaning 21-25 would be 2d6, 26-30 would be 4d6, etc.

Meeki said:
Soldier's Fortune: Random? After you said it does not stack with paladin's divine grace you can put or any similar bonus. This is supernatural also.

Good idea. I'll definately clarify that. I couldn't think of another class off-hnad that got a similar ability but I'll add the change. I'll concede that it may be a little random. I didn't want them to have better base saves than the warrior but I felt that due to the massive amount of time that these soldiers spent in actual or mock combat would cause them to have some form of increased saves. Some of the main reasons I used Charisma were listed above. On top of those I felt that Charisma was one of the less important stats for a Spartan Hoplite. I would say that Str is the most important, with Dex being second due to having to use light armor, with Con being last due to the fact that it's a front line fighter. Intelligence isn't that important for a Spartan Hoplite and may be the "dump stat" for this class (though you could make a rogue and use tumble and be fairly decent as a Spartan Hoplite). Wisdom, in my opinion, would be slightly more important than Intelligence because it directly affects a save, but not as important as Charisma because it affects all saves and the intimidate skill.

Meeki said:
Shield Wall: Where is this feat from?

Well, I don't know. I'm waiting for a previous poster to get back to me on that so I can look at it. I may remove it completely from the class. If there isn't already a feat named that and I misunderstood the previous poster then it'll do something similar to what follows: "When two or more Spartan Hoplites perform a Shield Wall they grant 3/4 cover to all allies standing behind the wall. Spartan Hoplites may only move at 5 feet per round while creating a Shield Wall but may perform full attack actions to any enemies they come in contact with." Or something like that.

Meeki said:
Shield Ally: Needs to be reworded. Have to take out left hand side since there is no facing in D&D and the hoplite could technically rotate anyway he seems fit to have anyone be on the left hand side. Use the term adjacent ally. Reword it so it says as a standard action the hoplite may ....

I'll definately reword this to make it easier to understand that it's a standard action. I'm not so sure as the idea that there is no facing in D&D. In the campaigns I have been in there is.. without it I'm not sure how flanking would work at all since your ally has to be on the opposite side of the enemy the two of you are flanking and he has to attack the enemy (which would put him facing it). I'm going to leave the left-handed side part to this and leave it to the DMs discretion because the Phalanx that Spartan Hoplites are known for functioned exactly this way. The entire row of Spartan Hoplites faced the same way and most of the shield they carried protected the soldier to the left of them not to the right. While, yes, the Spartan Hoplite could turn to put someone who was on his right hand side on his left hand side, it's still the left hand side. Also, if the Spartan and the ally were originally facing forward, and the Spartan turned around to put the ally on his left hand side, the shield would be lifted infront of the allies back until the ally turned around. It might be a good idea to have this work similar to how the Shield spell worked in 3.0 where it could only cover 180 degrees of the caster at a time. That would give the effect of the left handed idea. Or perhaps have it so that it grants a set bonus to the ally's AC instead of all of the Shields AC bonus to the ally. Let me know what you think of these ideas please.

Meeki said:
Overall this class seems fine. I'm not 100% sure on its power but since its essentially limited to light armor it's probably not over powerul. However being able to use any polearm rather than just a spear may be an issue.

Thanks for all your imput. While any polearm instead of just a spear may cause an issue, I don't think it will be a very big one. Most of the polearms that do anything special are exotic weapons and would require the use of another feat to use properly anyway. I haven't found any polearms that it would be a noticable issue. Thanks again for your feed back, so far, for the most part, I've got that it looks fairly balanced. Please everyone, continue to let me know if you think it is overpowered or possibly underpowerd.
 

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