It's like the 'new' World of Darkness was for me.

C.W.Richeson · Dec 11, 2007

When White Wolf announced the end of the old World of Darkness everyone knew *something* was going to be promptly forthcoming from such a large publisher. Sure enough, we got an entirely new World of Darkness to follow it up. And, at first, I wasn't so keen on that. I really enjoyed the WoD games that had been published up to that point and didn't want to see them reimagined.

Today, however, I'm thrilled with what White Wolf did. See, I've still got those wonderful games from earlier on my shelves. If I want to play Mage: The Ascension I can do so at the drop of a hat, and I have more supplements than I could ever cram into a game. The same goes for all the other old lines. The great thing is that I've also got a bunch of wonderful new material for a different game. Requiem is a different experience than Masquerade and both offer me a fun play experience.

4E, without a doubt, is breaking the D&D mold. I have high hopes that this new game will be just as fun and fascinating as 3E has been, but even if it's not I'm comfortable with the knowledge that my shelves are lined with more awesome 3E, 2E, and 1E material than I could make use of in a lifetime.

sidonunspa · Dec 11, 2007

wow,

You are one of the most "glass half-full" people I have ever seen post on these boards... I wish I was half as optimistic as you!

::: queue evil genius music :::

Now if we can just distill your optimism and sell it!

Not only would this be a better world… but we would be rich

Which would be a sign, to me at least, that we live in a better world.

::: insert evil laughter :::

jasin · Dec 11, 2007

I feel much like this.

At worst, if I hate 4E, I'll keep playing 3E, which is, despite all its flaws, a pretty awesome game. Of course, the 3E player base will shrink and they won't be publishing new 3E books, but I have a pretty steady group and there's honestly little that I cannot do with existing 3E books and some houseruling, so I have very little to lose with the coming of 4E. And I have much to gain, should 4E turn out to be better.

Remathilis · Dec 11, 2007

Thank you for summing up my thoughts exactly.

dmccoy1693 · Dec 11, 2007

Ok then, perhaps we should call 4E: nD&D.

Umbran · Dec 11, 2007

Well, just to explicate the thing otherwise...

I think the nWoD threw away continuing support for my favorite game in the old line (Mage), and replaced with support for a new game for which I think lost all the things that made the original great. I see the new Werewolf game as having some promise, I guess, but I never had much use for Vampire in the first place, so there's no win there...

So, the nWoD is a mixed bag, at best, for me. And while your shelves may be filled with old material you could continue to use, mine are not. So if I want material to play the old game, I have to scrounge around, and pick up battered, ill-treated used books if I can find them at all.

I can understand the economic necessity, and I don't begrudge them that, but the nWoD is not a win for me, personally. I am hoping I am not in the same boat for 4e, but my judgment will be reserved for when I see the game.

mmu1 · Dec 11, 2007

Unfortunately, I can't relate to your unfounded optimism.

Seriously, though... While I find a lot of systems to be interesting, I only have a limited amount of time to spend on gaming. The same goes for the friends I game with - so while there are times when we'd like to try something else, and occasionally we do, for the most part we end up defaulting to what we know works.

If I'm only going to play one system 90% of the time, it had better be a damn near perfect fit for the sort of game I enjoy - and most of the stuff we've been told so far suggests that 4E isn't going to be that system. So there's really no upside here for me - in fact, since it might split the user base and make it harder to find 3.5 games if my current group should break up, it's nothing but bad news, as far as I'm concerned.

delericho · Dec 11, 2007

Personally, I have boxes upon boxes od OWoD books (actually, VtM), and precisely two NWoD books. I have played two hours of Vampire: the Requiem, where the Masquerade was my system of choice for about three years prior to the release of D&D 3e.

It's also worth noting that, on reading the new World of Darkness/Vampire the Requiem core rulebooks, I was immediately struck by two things: the rules of the game were a vast improvement over that which had gone before... and I had absolutely desire to play that game. At the moment, my sense of 4e is that the mechanics will be better in some respects (extending the sweet spot), worse in others (auto-crit on a 20)... and I have absolutely no desire to play the game I've been reading about.

So, it does look like the parallel might be an apt one.

Unfortunately, when I tried to go back to Vampire: the Masquerade, I found that the game was largely 'played out' for me - I had done everything in that system that I wanted to do. Furthermore, the lack of the mechanical improvements from the NWoD was very frustrating. With D&D, I've become familiar enough with the 3.5e rules to see the weaknesses all to clearly. I wanted to really like 4e, and was ready for a new edition. So, I don't feel just continuing with 3.5e is really the ideal answer.

Rechan · Dec 11, 2007

To be honest, the only thing that I didn't like about the nWoD was that the tribes/clans came off as lame. And going from 12 to 5 was a large disappointment.

However, for me I'm excited about the fluff, about the game I'm reading about 4e.

Imaro · Dec 11, 2007

Well I for one think this is an interesting comparison. For me I did invest heavily into oWoD, but I really had to look at nWoD as a new game to appreciate it. I haven't invested as much into the nWoD, mainly because I am much more discerning about what I buy. In the oWoD I bought numerous corebooks and supplements while with the nWoD, nMage has become my main line (with Changeling and the "mortal" supplements a very close second). I haven't bought anything for Requiem, simply because it didn't appeal to me and my friend collects the Werewolf line so I didn't see the point in investing in it as well.

Personally I like the nWoD toolkit approach more than I liked oWoD's metaplot/storyline approach. The rules are cleaner and easier than the previous oWoD, but I will say the main selling point to me was that the new games (at least Mage & Changeling) offer a different play experience than the old ones. This is also why I can't get excited about D&D 4e, it doesn't really seem to offer a new experience in play. It offers new powers/classes/races...but in the end it's still about killing things in tactical combat and taking their stuff. There's only so many different variations of this basic theme (if it can even be called that) that I actually want to spend money on to run and I have a multitude of systems to do it in (D&D 3.5, C&C, Runequest, True20, Descent boardgame). I don't know if D&D 4e is really bringing anything to the table that would justify me jumping on the treadmill again.

On a side note, as much as I like the nWoD over the old, ancedotal evidence I've seen scattered across the internet has all seemed to point to the conclusion that White Wolf did loose a percentage of it's marketshare and sales in this revamp. I find this interesting because the nWoD seems to correct everything the fans complained about (metaplot, railroads, uber NPC's, better system, toolkit approach) yet it doesn't sell as well as the oWoD.