My thoughts of Roles - from Races and Classes

Voss · Dec 20, 2007

Najo said:
So, seriously. Supporter is really so negative of a term that those who prefer playing supporter classes like the cleric and warlords have to have an ego boost by being called leader? Seriously?

Yes.
Keep in mind that this largely comes from the idea that the cleric is the walking first aid kit, who might buff people occasionally. (Whether true or not, so people, just let it go, and not start in on the tired old saw about how you played clerics offensively).

WotC is really, really trying to get away from that conception. It didn't work to well in 3e, because they overcompensated and people realized that if you ignored the healer/support role, you got CoDzilla all over the table. So now they want to get that stain out as well.

And given their penchant for for names that sound 'cool and dramatic', they're definitely going to pick leader over supporter, booster or whatever other vaguely synonymous term people come up with.

They also aren't going to worry to much about the 1 kid in 500 who actually gets confused by this for more than 5 minutes and isn't disabused of the 'Leader means I'm the boss' notion by the rest of his group.

Najo · Dec 20, 2007

Kamikaze Midget said:
The Leader is the opposite role to the Controller. Leaders dictate which actions might be beneficial to the party, the Controller dictates which actions might be a hinderence to the enemy.

The Controller has an ability to make difficult terrain. The Leader has an ability that allows characters to ignore difficult terrain.

I don't see the semantic problem.

It's a difference of action vs. reaction.

A supporter asks his friend what his friend wants to do, his friend says "I want to hit things!" the supporter makes him hit things harder.

A leader doesn't ask. A leader says "I think it'd be a good idea to hit things, have a bonus to that." The friend can then choose to hit things and get the bonus (like the leader asked) or not (presumably, he's got a better idea in mind, like drinking a healing potion or moving beyond the trap).

If I give you a +2 to saves vs. fear, am I a supporter, bolstering your defenses? Or am I a leader, telling you to stop sniveling and go face that dragon's aura, I don't care HOW paranoid you are.

It's the same thing, and "supporter" carries more "second class citizen" baggage. Active voice is better than passive voice. Acting is more fun than buffing.

Because when I think support, I think bras, and when I think leader, I think Alexander the Great.

Which do you think I'd rather play in a fantasy setting?

Ok, this is the best arguement so far.

Now, something that is key here is a leader/support type class either giving a bonus because they are backing someone up or because they are telling them to stop snivelling. The role is either undermining the supporter or making them undermine their fellow party members. How do you lable the class role in a way that doesn't place them OVER or UNDER the other party members?

Najo · Dec 20, 2007

Scribble said:
Does it matter?

If my arguments are just going to be pushed off as "silly" then my input is of little use.

I apologize if I offended you. I don't agree with the idea of one player type influencing the others more than the other influence each other. I think that takes to much power from the other players choices and ability to determine how they want the roles to work together. I alos don't think most groups work that way. I think most groups coordinate and solve problems together, instead of reacting to the choices of the player who is in the "leader" role.

Personally, if the cleric or warlord tried to play this way and make the other players do what he wants by how he used his powers, they would get a smack to the head by the other players. That is the issue I see with this whole "leader" role.

Najo · Dec 20, 2007

AncientSpirits said:
I wish WotC had visited www.dictionary.com to find an alternate term, like say:
Booster

Yeah, I know rockets instead of bras.

That said, booster is more active than supporter, describes even better what (we think) they'll do, etc. Of course, it's not a familiar term to online gamers or table toppers.

Anyway, English has 200,000+ words. Surely we can get more than 2 options!

That's my 2 cents

I suppose Booster is no less weird than Striker or Controller. I agree supporter can have negative conatations, but so does leader in the opposite way. We need a term that doesn't imply it is superior to the other three roles, like leader does. I think leader is as bad (or worse) of a choice than supporter for the same reasons, it implies superiority. Booster still means they are dependant on others somewhat (which defender implies too i.e. who are you "defending"), although you can boost yourself too.

I spent an hour poking around thesaurus.com and bext I found was supporter, but that doesn't mean there isn't a term out there.

I'm A Banana · Dec 20, 2007

How do you lable the class role in a way that doesn't place them OVER or UNDER the other party members?

You don't need to. The leader is free to say "stop sniveling." They're also free to say. "Aww, it's okay, you don't need to be scared of the big stwong dwagon." They're also free to say nothing and just give the PC a cookie. All that is flavor, fluff, and the determination will be made based on individual play styles and what the group is comfortable with.

Also notice that nothing a Leader can do will likely *force* anyone to obey, nor will the leader have a method to punish those who do not. Like a two-year-old saying "BUY ME THIS! BUY ME THIS! BUY ME THIS!" the Leader might say "Do this do this do this!" and nobody will because it's not a good idea for them. People are free to ignore the role.

The Leader might be Alexander the Great, but the other party members ae Gengis Khan, King Arthur, and Shaft. No one tells these guys what to do.

The sidebar of "leader, not boss" is more than adequate to say "Hey, just because you're called a 'leader' doesn't mean you get to decide what other people are going to do. That's why you're not a COMMANDER."

Anything more is just pointless paranoia over an as-yet nonexsitent problem.

My thoughts of Roles - from Races and Classes

Voss

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Najo

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Najo

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Najo

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I'm A Banana

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