Skill list guess

Morrus · Dec 21, 2007

I'm gonna have a crack at guessing the 4E skill list. I'm sure it'll be way off-base, but, hey, it's something to do!

So we know that (a) there are about half the number of skills; (b) combining thematically is the way forward; (c) "knowledge" seems to be out.

Here's the 3.5 skill list for reference:

SRD said:
Appraise
Balance
Bluff
Climb
Concentration
Craft
Decipher Script
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Disguise
Escape Artist
Forgery
Gather Information
Handle Animal
Heal
Hide
Intimidate
Jump
Knowledge
Listen
Move Silently
Open Lock
Perform
Profession
Ride
Search
Sense Motive
Sleight Of Hand
Speak Language
Spellcraft
Spot
Survival
Swim
Tumble
Use Magic Device
Use Rope

OK, first to apply changes we know about for sure, taken from the 4E Info page and adding in the latest R&C info:

Getting rid of tailor [I read that as Craft/Profession], Rope Use, etc. (source).
Can roll critical failure on a skill check (source).
History, Streetwise, Religion, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Insight (source).
Listen & Spot; Move Silently & Hide; Open Lock and Sleight of Hand is combined. Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft and Read Magic is combined to Arcane (source: R&C).
Arcana, Insight, History, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering (source).

Applying those changes, I get the following:

Arcana
Balance
Bluff
Climb
Decipher Script
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Disguise
Dungeoneering
Escape Artist
Handle Animal
Heal
History
Insight
Intimidate
Jump
Open Lock/Sleight of Hand
Perception
Perform
Religion
Ride
Speak Language
Stealth
Streetwise
Survival
Swim
Tumble
Use Magic Device

That drops the list to 28 skills. We're looking for a list of about 18 skills (give or take), so we need to cull that by another 8-10 skills somehow.

Complete guesses now:

Jump/Tumble/Balance to combine to Acrobatics.
Bluff/Diplomacy to combine to Diplomacy.
Use Magic Device to go (just a gut feeling since the magic system is being so revamped).
Disable Device into Sleight of Hand/Open Lock (need a name for that).

So my list now looks like this:

Acrobatics
Arcana
Climb
Decipher Script
Diplomacy
Disguise
Dungeoneering
Escape Artist
Handle Animal
Heal
History
Insight
Intimidate
Open Lock/Sleight of Hand/Disable Device
Perception
Perform
Religion
Ride
Speak Language
Stealth
Streetwise
Survival
Swim

That brings us down to 22, which is the right ballpark. Things which don't "feel right" now, given those changes, include:

Decipher Script
Speak Language

Thoughts? Have I missed anything? Would you interpret the info differently?

drothgery · Dec 21, 2007

Just for reference, the skill list in SWSE is...

Acrobatics
Climb
Deception
Endurance
Gather Information
Initiative
Jump
Knowlede (Bureaucracy, Galatic Lore, Life sciences, Phyical sciences, Social sciences, Tactics, Technology)
Mechanics
Perception
Persuasion
Pilot
Ride
Stealth
Survival
Swim
Treat Injury
Use Computer
Use the Force

... and I'd guess that's a pretty good starting point. Obviously the available knowledge areas will change (and some hints have suggested Knowledge skills might be gone entirely). Pilot, Use Computer, and Use the Force aren't approriate in D&D. And while a lot of the tasks under Mechanics in Saga are classic thief skills, the name Mechanics doesn't really fit the genre.

bording · Dec 21, 2007

Decipher Script is one of the skills called out in Races & Classes as being too narrow and folded into another skill, so I doubt that will be around as a separate skill. Out of the skills in your list, I would probably combine it with Arcana.

Winding Road · Dec 21, 2007

The new elf entry specifically calls out a Nature skill; I'd bet on it combining Knowledge (nature), Survival, and Handle Animal. Perform looks unlikely to stick around as well, what with the bard being held back.

Khaalis · Dec 21, 2007

Edited: 1/3/08 after Traps article

Combining all of the Information we have to date, from known changes to 3.5 list, to SWSE preview to notes on released 4E info... this is my running guess at 16 skills. I still think they will use "Knowledge" as a skill, but instead of writing out Knowledge (nature) for example they simply state "Nature" for reference in the skills. If not the list goes up to 20.

* Acrobatics (Balance, Escape Artist, Jump, Tumble)
* Arcane (Knowledge [arcana], Spellcraft, Read Magic, UMD) - basiclally "Use the Force" from SWSE
* Climb
* Deception (Bluff, Disguise, Forgery)
* Diplomacy
* Endurance (Concentration - ala SWSE)
* Knowledge: (includes relevant active skills however)
..........Dungeoneering (Knowledge [dungeoneering], Survival)
..........History (Knowledge [history, nobles, bureaucracy, geogrpahy])
..........Nature (Knowledge [nature], Survival, , Handle Animal?)
..........Religion (Knowledge [religion], Spellcraft)
..........Streetwise (Knowledge [local], Survival)
* Initiative (ala SWSE)
* Insight (Gather Information, Decipher Script, Sense Motive)
* Intimidate
* Perception (Listen, Search, Spot)
* Ride (Ride, Handle Animal?)
* Stealth (Hide, Move Silently)
* Swim
* Thievery (Disable Device, Open Lock, Slight of Hand)
* Treat Injury (Heal, Profession: [herbalism])

1/3/08 - Dropped and changed to Thievery.
* Manipulation (Disable Device, Open Lock, Slight of Hand, Perform [juggle], Use Rope - possibly Craft as well - similar to SWSE Mechanics)

Pat · Dec 21, 2007

bording said:
Decipher Script is one of the skills called out in Races & Classes as being too narrow and folded into another skill, so I doubt that will be around as a separate skill. Out of the skills in your list, I would probably combine it with Arcana.

History makes as much sense, and Arcana is already overloaded.

Plane Sailing · Dec 21, 2007

My guesses?

Appraise -> insight
Balance -> acrobatics
Bluff -> deception
Climb -> Athletics
Concentration ->
Craft -> disappears
Decipher Script -> insight
Diplomacy -> Diplomacy
Disable Device -> Manipulation
Disguise -> deception
Escape Artist
Forgery -> deception
Gather Information -> Streetwise
Handle Animal -> Nature
Heal -> Heal
Hide -> Sneak
Intimidate -> Intimidate
Jump -> Acrobatics
Knowledge -> Arcane, Religion, Nature, Streetwise, History, Dungeoneering
Listen -> Perception
Move Silently -> Sneak
Open Lock -> Manipulation
Perform -> Perform
Profession -> gone
Ride -> Ride
Search -> Perception
Sense Motive -> Insight
Sleight Of Hand -> Manipulation
Speak Language -> new mechanic
Spellcraft -> Arcane
Spot -> Perception
Survival -> Survival
Swim -> Athletic
Tumble -> Acrobatic
Use Magic Device -> gone
Use Rope -> gone

This makes my suggestions turn out as

Acrobatics includes jump, tumble, balance
Arcane includes read magic, spellcraft, knowledge(arcane)
Athletics includes climb, swim
Concentration as before
Deception includes bluff, disguise, forgery
Diplomacy as before
Dungeoneering replaces Knowledge(Dungeoneering) (could include climbing?)
Endurance replaces fort saves for endurance stuff, as per SWSE
Escape Artist ??? Can't see where this should go???
Heal as before
History replaces Knowledge(history)
Insight includes sense motive, decipher script, appraise
Manipulation includes Sleight of hand, disable device, open locks
Nature includes handle animal, knowledge(nature)
Perception includes spot, listen, search
Perform generic performance skill
Religion replaces Knowledge(Religion), becomes an equivalent for divine 'spellcraft'
Ride as before
Sneak includes move silently, hide in cover
Streetwise includes gather information, knowledge(local)
Survival includes survival

Profession, Craft, Use Magic Device, Use rope disappears

That's my current guess.

Disguise and forgery are rarely used so they might as well be rolled into bluff whether renamed as 'deception' or not.

Insight seems to be a natural home for sense motive, decipher script and appraise because they are all about making judgements about something (the character of a person, the meaning of a text, the value of an object)

Escape Artist is a bit of an outlier and should probably disappear and be replaced by a rogue class ability somewhere along the line.

Speak Language should disappear from the skill list and be handled with a different, simple (and probably optional) mechanic.

drothgery · Dec 21, 2007

Plane Sailing said:
Speak Language should disappear from the skill list and be handled with a different, simple (and probably optional) mechanic.

Again, FWIW, this is what SWSE does. You get stating bonus languages standard-d20 style (i.e. add your int bonus), and then the Linguist feat gives you 1 + int bonus additional languages (and can be taken multiple times).

Sadrik · Dec 21, 2007

Here is my wish list: including what has already been announced. Intimidate should really be a per encounter ability imho.

Acrobatics (jump, tumble, escape artist)
Act (disguise, perform act, perform comedy)
Arcana (appraise craft and repair magic, knowledge arcane, spellcraft, id dragons, planar cratures, and constructs)
Athletics (climb, swim, ride)
Building (craft and repair buildings and structures, knowledge architecture and engineering)
Craftsmanship (Appraise craft and repair most things including weapons)
Diplomacy (gather info, diplomacy, perform oratory)
Dungeoneering (nature, handle animal, survival but for underground, id animals, plants and oozes)
Finery (Appraise, repair and craft fine things/art- including forgery)
Heal
History (history, local, nobility, royalty, id a religion, and humanoids)
Insight (sense motive)
Intimidate
Language (speak language, decipher script, id a language)
Music (perform musical instrument, perform sing)
Nature (nature, handle animal, survival, id animals, plants and fey)
Occult (religion, id undead, and shapchangers)
Perception (spot, listen)
Pilot (profession sailing)
Search (track)
Stealth (hide, move silently)
Streetwise (bluff)
Thievery (open locks, disable traps, sabotage device, sleight of hand)

Concentration (class ability)
Use rope (gone)
Use magic device (gone)
Profession (gone)

Mighty Veil · Dec 22, 2007

I've merged skills for my game months ago, below are my skills. I'm thinking of re-merging some, below also. Maybe my names will fill any void for a name. Feel free.

Athletics (climb, swim, jump)
Acrobatics (balance, tumble, escape artist)
Burglar (Sleight of Hand, Open Locks, Use ropes)
Ride
Stealth (Mv silent, hide)
Concentrate
Appraise
Calligraphy (forgery, decipher script, "scroll use")
Craft Alchemy (incl. poisons, salves)
Craft Arms and Armor
Craft Mundane (everything else)
Disable Device (disable device, search)
KS Adventureer (local, nobility, history)
KS Arcana (arcana, spellcraft)
KS Dungeoneer (dugeoneer, engineering)
KS Nature (nature, geography)
KS Religion (religion, planes)
Perception (spot, listen)
Profession (D20 Modern's version. Gives money to PCs)
Survival (survival, heal)
Charm (diplomacy, perform)
Deception (bluff, disguise)
Handle Animal
Instigate (gather info, intimidate)
Use Magic Device
Speak Language

I've been thinking for awhile now of merging my crafts into the knowledges. I kept D.Device out of a bundle to force rogues to spend skill points. The D20 Mod version (my version of it for D&D) was a big hit with the players. Appraise also has its ow house rules to make it more sexy for adventurers to take, otherwise I would have merged it. I'm thinking of putting KS Planes into Arcana. Originally I had a Knowledge Scholastics which had all the non-monster ID KS in them. No one still took it, so I stuck bits of those skills into others. I had synergies but I think I'll drop them. I might put the skill ceiling from level +3 (for both cs and cc) to Lvl +4.