D&D 4E How would you re-envision Darksun with 4e?

Najo

First Post
So, 4e has come out. You are working on the WOTC staff incharge of making the campaign guide for the 4e Darksun setting. What changes do you make to the setting? What do you focus on for the players to do? How do you change D&D game play? What changes do you make to the story? What sort of content do you plan for the campaign guide?
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Greg K

Legend
Najo said:
So, 4e has come out. You are working on the WOTC staff incharge of making the campaign guide for the 4e Darksun setting. What changes do you make to the setting? What do you focus on for the players to do? How do you change D&D game play? What changes do you make to the story? What sort of content do you plan for the campaign guide?

I would be afraid to let WOTC touch this setting based upon what they did with the Dragon article

Edit: Okay, apparently, Paizo editors were responsible for the changes to Dave Noonan's manuscript that resulted in the poor treatment of a 3.x Dark Sun. WOTC's R&D simply approved the changes. So, based on that, I'd let Noonan handle Dark Sun provided that he and R&D stayed true to the setting as presented in the original box set. However, I'd still be wary of WOTC's R&D designing an updated Dark Sun based upon their choices and implementation of new mechanical elements for which I generally have not cared over the past two or three years.
 
Last edited:

The Little Raven

First Post
Greg K said:
I would be afraid to let WOTC touch this setting based upon what they did with the Dragon article

Paizo published that article, so it was Paizo that put out that Dark Sun rendition. Also, two of the writers are on the Athas.org "overcouncil," so I'm not exactly sure where this "WotC messed up Dark Sun in 3e" nonsense comes from.
 

Greg K

Legend
Mourn said:
Paizo published that article, so it was Paizo that put out that Dark Sun rendition. Also, two of the writers are on the Athas.org "overcouncil," so I'm not exactly sure where this "WotC messed up Dark Sun in 3e" nonsense comes from.

I seem to recall Noonan stating either here or on the WOTC boards that the decision to include Paladins and other non Dark Sun elements was not his . The material was included by WOTC design and development, because they believed players would be upset if they could not use everything from the PHB after putting out the cash for it. So, while Paizo may have published the article, it was WOTC responsible for the decision.
 

The Little Raven

First Post
Greg K said:
I seem to recall Noonan stating either here or on the WOTC boards that the decision to include Paladins and other non Dark Sun was not his choice but done by WOTC design and development, because players would be upset if they could not use everything from the PHB after putting out the cash for it. So, while Paizo may have published the article, it was WOTC responsible for the decision.

A source would be nice, otherwise this is unsubstantiated hearsay.
 

Greg K

Legend
(edited: Chris Perkins post on subject is reposted following my repost of WOTC_Dave )
I stand corrected. Apparently, it was the Dragon editors., but it was approved by WOTC R&D. Chris Perkins stated that WOTC and Paizo worked together closely and the material had to be approved by WOTC. So I still lay some of the blame on WOTC R&D for approving the material. I'll post both WOTC_Dave and Chris Perkins responses regarding the changes

For anyone interested, here was WOTC_ Dave's response

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=214718&perpage=30&pagenumber=3

WotC_Dave

I’m the guy who wrote the Dark Sun rules. I was as surprised as anyone by some of what I read in Dragon #319. And I strongly disagree with some of the decisions the Dragon editors made.
It’s their right to make those decisions—they bought my work fair and square. But if you’re starting a Dark Sun game, you might find my perspective useful. I’ve run 3E Dark Sun since late 1999, playing out of three-ring binders, and it’s far and away my favorite setting. Along the way I’ve had plenty of opportunities to goof up as DM—and in the process learn how the core rules and the Dark Sun setting interact.

Characters
My original manuscript said this: “There are no bards, monks, paladins, or sorcerers in Dark Sun.” I stand by that 100%.

• Paladins simply have no place in the setting, as any longtime fan of Dark Sun knows. If I had a player at my Dark Sun table who really wanted to play a paladin, I’d write an elemental crusader prestige class or adapt the holy liberator, maybe in an antislavery direction.
• Monks pose serious balance problems that aren’t immediately apparent but emerge once your Dark Sun campaign has been going a while. In short, they’re way too good in a campaign that places significant limits on armor (which the monk doesn’t have to worry about) and weapons (which the monk also doesn’t have to worry about). Removing monks also creates more design space for psychic warriors.
• Rather than a bard base class, I wrote an “athasian bard” prestige class full of mysterious, assassin-like goodness. It didn’t see print.
• Sorcerers crowd the psion’s design space too much. If there’s one thing that playtesting taught me, it’s that Dark Sun works best when psions are the best spontaneous casters in the game. (And I’m baffled why sorcerers would pretend to be wizards.)

Weapons
My original manuscript had a weapon breakage rule that didn’t see print. Without it, I’m not sure that there’s much point to the different weapon materials, because character wealth will quickly ascend beyond the point where inferior weapons matter. With the rules as published, I imagine everyone will buy metal or blood obsidian weapons right away and ignore the other choices. After all, a metal longsword is still only 150 cp in the published rules, and it’ll last indefinitely.

In my playtests and my ongoing campaign, I got satisfying results if PCs start with obsidian/stone, bone, or bronze weapons and have to contend with inferior weapons and breakage for the first few levels of the campaign. Then the PCs earn their metal weapons, but they still have to worry about breakage when they’re unlucky or facing sundering enemies. If your Dark Sun game derives a similar result, I think you’ll enjoy it immensely.

I also think it’s worthwhile to distinguish costwise between all-metal weapons (like swords) and hafted metal weapons (like axes). And if you use blood obsidian in your own game, here's a tip: it might make an interesting component in some monsters' DR.

Armor
The published armor rules are also much different than the ones in my manuscript. I wrote some detailed “hot weather”rules that were punishing to PCs who wore heavy armor. The published rules don’t provide a disincentive for wearing heavy armor; a typical PC will be able to afford iron full plate easily by 7th or 8th level. If you want a traditional Dark Sun game where most PCs are lightly armored, consider adding some teeth to the Heat Dangers section on page 303 of the DMG and send the metal armor prices through the roof.

As an aside, people who really like tinkering with their game could ramp down the character wealth by level (DMG table 5-1) in their Dark Sun game. It’d further emphasize the harsh, metal-poor nature of the world. But character wealth by level touches many other aspects of the game, from class-by-class balance to challenge ratings, so tread carefully. You’ll probably have to refigure CR for monsters based on your own playtesting, which is time-consuming (but kind of fun). I left character wealth unchanged because I wanted DMs to be able to port new monsters and other game elements into their Dark Sun game without extensive playtesting. But if you’re interested in tinkering, I think it’s an idea worth exploring.

While I don’t agree with some of the decisions the Dragon editors made, it’s absolutely their right to make those decisions. And fundamentally, you’re in charge of what goes on at your game table, so do what you want. No matter what rules set you use, I’ll just be glad if you’re playing Dark Sun.

--------
From Chris Perkins (see post 117 on the link below)
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=214718&page=4&pp=30


Hi! As you debate the merits of the editorial changes to Dave Noonan's Dark Sun article in Dragon Magazine, please consider the following three points:

(1) The staff at Paizo Publishing are friends and colleagues of staffers here at Wizards and in RPG R&D. We work with them very closely, and we game with many of them regularly. We all have the best interests of the D&D community at heart, and we each bring our perspectives to the work we do.

(2) As per Wizards' agreement with Paizo Publishing, RPG R&D reviews and approves ALL magazine content (art and text) before it sees print. Nothing is printed without some authority at Wizards signing off on it.

(3) The editors at Paizo Publishing are not merely copyeditors but also developers and substantive editors. (It's been so since before I worked on the magazines, during my tenure on the magazines, and ever since.) Magazine articles and adventures endure the same rigorous development and editing processes as our RPG products, only the magazines operate on an accelerated schedule.

Obviously, it is difficult to provide content that every reader will completely enjoy, but we have great trust and confidence in the Paizo editors' ability to support and elevate the D&D experience, provide useful content to our shared audience, and entertain the masses with their wild monkey antics.

Thanks for reading!

Chris Perkins
 
Last edited:

Klaus

First Post
Najo said:
So, 4e has come out. You are working on the WOTC staff incharge of making the campaign guide for the 4e Darksun setting. What changes do you make to the setting? What do you focus on for the players to do? How do you change D&D game play? What changes do you make to the story? What sort of content do you plan for the campaign guide?
I'd bring it back to the original boxed set.

I'd chain Brom to a chair and have him paint as much as possible.
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
Mourn said:
A source would be nice, otherwise this is unsubstantiated hearsay.
I distinctly recall reading this well. WotC did the same thing to 3E Dragonlance.

As for the OP: hard to say until they release 4E Psionics and we can see what it looks like. Same for judging how much work the halflings or dwarves will need, or if any 4E MM monster with "PC rules" can be used for Muls (orcs, maybe, and Ogres for Half-Giants?).

I think Dragonborn with a new name will make a great Athasian race as written. Obviously can't call them Dragonborn though (at least, I wouldn't).

As for magic, I wouldn't bother trying to re-write the Wizard or Warlock any time soon. I want to try the new mechanics "as written" for the moment, regardless of world. You can handle the Preserver/Defiler divide with just fluffy stuff and roleplaying. I care less than others though because I wouldn't allow Defiler PC's anyway, though I realize that not everyone would feel that way. Maybe you can recast Defilers as some kind of Warlock.

Somewhat amusingly, "Fighters" as presented in DSCS are best handled with the Warlord class (leader of men and armies) while "Gladiators" would probably use the 4E Fighter class.
 

I'd probably run it with Iron Heroes honestly. The rules as originally written hosed guys like fighters even more than 1st/2nd edition already did (pretty hard to fathom, I know).
 
Last edited:


Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top