Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

takasi · Jan 9, 2008

In the Worlds and Monsters thread, a few posters lamented the loss of a dragon's innate spellcasting ability. It was suggested that a new thread pop up, so I'm starting one.

Doesn't it seem more appropriate to have TREASURE that makes makes things like alarms? Or magical locations? Or non-combat rituals? Or minions? It's definately more streamlined than wading through things that, honestly, will rarely be used.

Sitara · Jan 9, 2008

Removing spellcasting/powers from dragons is the best thing ever. Finally! Dragons are cunning and canny brutes, not freaking scholars who pore over ancient tomes. they get unique powers for them only (hopefully different for ewach color) and their dragon breath. Oha nd hteir massive size, teeth and claws, wings, etc.

Thats all they need.

As for lairs, maybe they have a good sense of smell (high perception). They doin't need an alarm spell.

Oh and margeret weis is probably wrenching her hair out right now. lol

GreatLemur · Jan 9, 2008

I have no idea why anyone would ever think that all dragons must have elaborate, custom-made lairs full of magical traps, or that they must create these things themselves through innate magical abilities. It seems like a pretty silly demand, and it doesn't come anywhere near the way most people think of dragons.

If I want a dragon who lives in a palace full of traps, I can just give it some minions, or a few levels in a spellcasting class. Why is it important that dragons don't have to do the work (or make the deals) that other beings would have to in order to get those things?

Cadfan · Jan 9, 2008

Ever notice that, even though dragons have (had) nifty spellcasting abilities that can create lairs, they always live in crappy caves? You never see a dragon living in a hall of polished marble, filled with pillows forty feet across, with all of their riches neatly organized by national currency and denomination.

Xyl · Jan 9, 2008

GreatLemur said:
If I want a dragon who lives in a palace full of traps, I can just give it some minions, or a few levels in a spellcasting class. Why is it important that dragons don't have to do the work (or make the deals) that other beings would have to in order to get those things?

In fact, there's the kernel of an adventure here. "A dragon has kidnapped a master trapmaker to make defenses for its lair!"

infax · Jan 9, 2008

For me it all hinges on how easy will monsters be to adapt for different uses (since we know it won't be simple to just slap a handful of PC class levels to them - it was doable but not easy on 3e, anyway).

It seems many players see dragons as brutes but I am much more familiar with dragons as creatures of very great age full of knowledge. While I can work with the former, I would very much like to have the latter.

I agree creatures don't need lots of non-combat abilities written up on their stat block, but I am staying confident that textual write-ups next to the stat blocks will be rich and flavorful.

TwinBahamut · Jan 9, 2008

I just want dragons that can rampage across the countryside, leaving nothing but destruction and terror in their wake. If I want brilliant masterminds, mighty sorcerers, or complex mazes lined with deadly traps, I will turn to humans and humanoids. If I want a flying monster with terrifying breath weapons and incredible strength with claws and teeth, I will use a dragon.

The logical conclusion of the 3E dragons were Eberron's dragons of Argonessen, which I consider the big glaring flaw of the whole setting. They are so intellgient, powerful, and organized that they don't even serve as something the PCs can reasonably interact with. The only influence dragons have on the PCs would be through rogue dragons of the Chamber, which is pretty much a fringe group of younger dragons. Argonessen itself might as well be a mythical place, considering how often a PC will actually step foot on it.

I think dragons are best suited to playing to their mythical niche, and not trying to be the "ultimate do anything BBEG" monster.

Edit: As for lairs... I think it is fine if dragons just find large caves or abandoned (or not quite abandoned) structures to dwell in. If you ask me, it doesn't even make sense that every dragon has a lair. I certainly don't think that every dragon needs an elaborate lair filled with minions and magic traps.

Mentat55 · Jan 9, 2008

It might be useful to consider what type of magical capabilities a dragon has in 3.5E, before we argue one way or the other what the loss of spellcasting will do.

An adult red dragon is CR 15 and can cast spells as a 7th level sorcerer; it can also cast spells from the cleric list, as well as spells from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains. Functionally, this means that the dragon can cast spells up the 3rd level (not very high). In addition, the red dragon only knows 5 1st lvl spells, 3 2nd lvl spells, and 2 3rd lvl spells. A very cursory examination of the PHB spell lists brings up these spells, which could provide vital non-combat capabilities to a dragon serving as a major antagonist:

Lair building: magic mouth, stone shape
Traps/wards: alarm, arcane lock, explosive runes, glyph of warding, hold portal, misdirection, nondetection, Nystul's magic aura, obscure object, sepia snake sigil
Information gathering: augury, clairaudience/clairvoyance
Allies/minions/slaves: charm person, status, suggestion

Note that other spells could be used to create magical device traps, but I have not listed these for the sake of brevity.

I think many of these capabilities could be accomplished with magic items or magical traps (crafted using a scroll of the appropriate spell), or perhaps a supernatural ability like "lair sense" or "hoard sense" that grants alarm spell-like powers to the dragon when it is in its lair.

The loss of spellcasting becomes a much bigger deal when you start talking about CR 20+ dragons that have caster levels in the teens and above.

ZombieRoboNinja · Jan 9, 2008

IMO dragons losing spells is a lot like wizards/clerics losing their overpowered melee buffing. In 3e, it actually made sense that a decent BBEG had to have tons of spells, because otherwise it'd have no chance against a high-level spellcaster who could rival it in melee AND have a bunch of spells up his sleeve.

Now that PC spellcasters aren't omnipotent, BBEGs don't have to be either.

cr0m · Jan 9, 2008

My impression is that NPC creation isn't going to be as handcuffed to class levels as it was in 3e, where to get a dragon with the ability to say, hypnotize with its gaze, you had to take a few levels in wizard and suddenly--he's got other random spells for no apparent reason, keeps a spellbook (turns the pages with some kind of dialing wand, no doubt) etc.

I'm totally making this up based on comments about ditching the class system for monster/npc creation, but I think in 4e you'll be able to just pick and choose the kind of powers you want your BBEG to have--or at least you'll have more freedom to pick them.