Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

Hi all! :)

Should have 3.1 on RPGNow in about 10 minutes. Will edit this when I do.

Actually make that 30 minutes - just noticed there are some smudges or something I'll need to make disappear with photoshop. GAH!

Okay minor problem - I have 3.1 on RPGNow as we speak, however, there doesn't seem to be any feature to edit the release date, so unless I can find one, the file won't be available until Sunday. If that is the case (and I'll keep looking for the next 30 minutes) I apologise, although it is only 24 hours which in the long history of the product is but a blip.

If I cannot fix the update tonight I'll see about squeezing in another illustration or two tomorrow. I'll update 3.1 to everyone else when it becomes available on RPGNow.
 
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Lord Arameth

First Post
Thank you! I've been waiting to download this for as long as I've been haunting the boards. It's been agony watching everyone discuss the beta version. :D

ohhhhhhhhh..... the satisfaction. :lol:
 

Welcome to the boards Lord Arameth! :)

...or at least its nice to get you posting. ;)

Lord Arameth said:
Thank you! I've been waiting to download this for as long as I've been haunting the boards. It's been agony watching everyone discuss the beta version. :D

ohhhhhhhhh..... the satisfaction. :lol:

Unfortunately the gods of fate had one last twist in the tail for me. I'm going to email RPGNow and see if they can open the release date because I can't see anyway of editing it. Although I am not sure if those guys work weekends? :confused:
 

dante58701

Banned
Banned
Alzrius said:
It's not an error. Perfect Summoning is a standard cosmic ability, and it makes your summoned creatures have 200% more Hit Dice than usual (that is to say, triple standard Hit Dice). This is because the standard advancement for a creature, as given in the Advancement line in their stat block, tops out at triple their normal Hit Dice (e.g. a balor has 20 HD, and a maximum possible advancement of 60 HD).

Hence, this power should be left the way it is.

Then why is it that the following is written?

Quasi-deity Improved Summoning (Psionics) Summoned creatures with the Psionic Sub-type have 50% more HD Always Active

...doesn't it seem kinda odd to go from +50%HD to +200%HD? That's a massive jump in Hit Dice.

Or is it supposed to be 150%HD then 300%HD? I suppose that might make sense if it were a leveling factor.

I just kinda figured +50%HD then +100%HD might be more even keeled.
 

Slaadmaster

First Post
I've been in the same situation as Lord Arameth - been waiting for ages to get my hands on this (finally got the Bestiary a couple of weeks ago as well :) )! First impressions are very positive: the book looks very visually pleasing and is well-formatted (obviously will be more so with all the art). I'll post some more in depth comments later but on a quick (first) read through I have a couple of questions and mistakes (sorry) to point out (in no particular order). I'm sure some of these have already been answered on some earlier thread.
1) Firstly, what was the reason for the changing of some of the domains from the SRD versions (such as magic or death)?
2) In the Stoicism portfolio the Elder and Old One abilties both read ..... Wisdom when they both apply to Constitution; probably just a copy/paste error.
3) I found that some existing deities would be hard to create using these rules due to the lack of some portfolios or how some portfolios are opposing (what portfolios would be most likely for Helm from FR - stoicism does not seem to really fit). Likewise some of the inherent weaknesses did not make sense to me such as a penalty to Wisdom for the Moon Portfolio. However, with the customisation of these been so easy (thanks to the explanation of the mechanics) this should not be hard to rectify or change.
4) The metalworking domain does not have a granted ability - error/feature?
5) How many domains does a deity start with and/or is able to grant to worshippers - 2 or 4? And if it is 4, can they use all of the spells as spell-like abilities or just those to which he has corresponding portfolios?
5) Would you advise the use of the artifact rules for all epic characters or just immortals?
6) Would I be correct in thinking that all First Ones have a double portfolio?
7) I would have found it very helpful to have some example of deities created with these rules. I understand Gods and Monsters will help here.
8) If I had the Pariah of Magic ability, would my own magic still work?
9) When an outsider is assumed to have a divine template by parallel due to its HD, I do not have to add the template myself - it is assumed to be already built in, correct?
10) I'll add more if/when I spot or can think of it :) .

Finally, I really enjoyed this book and though I may find it hard to think of uses for some of it, consider it a very good buy! I especially liked some of the descriptions of the Omnific abilities (e.g. tenth sense - Give the player a copy of the adventure you are running, :) ). I also found some of the symbolisms for the Supreme Being and Akashic Records funny (the great wall as the DM screen) and the Beyond the Beyond paragraph.

Sorry for the long post!
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
dante58701 said:
Then why is it that the following is written?

Quasi-deity Improved Summoning (Psionics) Summoned creatures with the Psionic Sub-type have 50% more HD Always Active

...doesn't it seem kinda odd to go from +50%HD to +200%HD? That's a massive jump in Hit Dice.

That's how it is for every template that has Improved Summoning for the single portfolio, and Perfect Summoning for the double portfolio.

Or is it supposed to be 150%HD then 300%HD? I suppose that might make sense if it were a leveling factor.

I just kinda figured +50%HD then +100%HD might be more even keeled.

It seems perfectly even-keeled to me. A creature with with 200% more Hit Dice has double the amount that a creature with 50% extra Hit Dice has. I think it's sensible that the deity with a double portfolio summons portfolio-themed creatures that are twice as strong as a deity with a single portfolio (particularly since that one can summon twice as many such creatures, since it has two single portfolios).
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Slaadmaster, I hope you don't mind if I take a crack at some of these, though some of them will have to be answered by U_K.

Slaadmaster said:
3) I found that some existing deities would be hard to create using these rules due to the lack of some portfolios or how some portfolios are opposing (what portfolios would be most likely for Helm from FR - stoicism does not seem to really fit). Likewise some of the inherent weaknesses did not make sense to me such as a penalty to Wisdom for the Moon Portfolio. However, with the customisation of these been so easy (thanks to the explanation of the mechanics) this should not be hard to rectify or change.

Well, this system isn't set up to exactly replicate the existing deity rules in D&D. It's true that some abilities laid out for existing gods in Deities and Demigods, as well as Faiths and Pantheons can't be exactly replicated by what's here. That said, this is still a more useful, balanced system (IMO), and the best thing to do is probably retool existing deities you'll be using in your game, along with using the IH guidelines to create any new domains/abilities that you want to use (as you noted).

5) How many domains does a deity start with and/or is able to grant to worshippers - 2 or 4? And if it is 4, can they use all of the spells as spell-like abilities or just those to which he has corresponding portfolios?

A deity normally only has two domains, though there are some abilities that let them take more than that. That said, most deities only have two domains, which is the number of domains they can grant to worshippers. Deities can use the spell-like abilities of any domain they have.

6) Would I be correct in thinking that all First Ones have a double portfolio?

That's the implied theme, but there's no particular reason they have to. First Ones are supposed to be the incarnation of a particular force or idea, so it makes the most sense for them to have a double portfolio.

7) I would have found it very helpful to have some example of deities created with these rules. I understand Gods and Monsters will help here.

Check out the write-up I did for Death with these rules. Death is a First One with the double death portfolio. This write-up is based on the write-up U_K did for Surtur (an Elder One), which I've attached at the bottom of this post.

8) If I had the Pariah of Magic ability, would my own magic still work?

I believe that's the intent, yes.

9) When an outsider is assumed to have a divine template by parallel due to its HD, I do not have to add the template myself - it is assumed to be already built in, correct?

Not exactly. It's already added in for Outsiders that U_K wrote himself (such as in the IH Bestiary), but for standard d20 Outsiders, you'll need to make the divinity changes yourself. For example, all balors are effectively Hero-deities, but you'll need to give them maximum hit points per die, divine bonus to various stats and dice rolls, etc.

The tricky part is figuring out what to do when they already have particular stats. I think the thing to do there is retool the existing stats under the Ascension guidelines. For example, figure out what a balor's natural armor bonus would be under Ascension's rules, and then throw out the existing natural armor bonus in favor of that one. Ditto for spell resistance, etc.
 

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paradox42

First Post
I'll take a crack at these as well, at least in the way of making suggestions based on my own game. Having been one of the original Beta signups I've got every version stashed away on my hard drive and have been using the rules in my own game as soon as they became both relevant and available. So this is a voice of experience talking. :)

Slaadmaster said:
5) How many domains does a deity start with and/or is able to grant to worshippers - 2 or 4? And if it is 4, can they use all of the spells as spell-like abilities or just those to which he has corresponding portfolios?
This is one of the most significant deviations the IH makes from the normal rules, and it's a whopper because all deities listed in the actual PHB and other printed books (to say nothing of the SRD) list at least four Domains. I solved it this way: a deity is allowed to gain what my game calls a "secondary Portfolio," which means the deity can use the Domain spells as spell-like abilities (or psi-like under appropriate circumstances), and can grant the Domain to Clerics, but doesn't get any other Portfolio powers (including the weaknesses). This is what happens if the deity fulfills a Portfolio Trial quest without having the "ability slots" necessary to take the Extra Portfolio Cosmic Ability. I say "ability slots" specifically, because depending on how you interpret the rules of how abilities are gained, you might allow a deity to spend six feat slots to gain a Divine ability, or even six Divine ability slots to gain a Cosmic- so that Extra Portfolio could potentially be gained by using six Divine slots or 36 feats.

Essentially, the universe notices the attempt to gain new power/influence over reality, but doesn't consider the Immortal "ready" for the full stuff and thus doesn't grant the full suite of abilities. It allows the deity to expand apparent influence for the mortal worshipers beyond merely two areas, without having to go through the process of gaining six divine ranks (or enough levels/HD to get 36 open feat slots) before being allowed to do that. This frees the DM up to assume that existing deities have undergone precisely this sort of "secondary Portfolio quest" to get the extra Domains they have, while making extra adventure fodder for PCs who ascend in a high-level game. The one catch with this method is, it clearly makes the Immortal more powerful, but it's not clear how much it should be worth in terms of ECL or CR.

Slaadmaster said:
5) Would you advise the use of the artifact rules for all epic characters or just immortals?
Krust usually advocates using those rules (in particular the four-item limit) at all Epic levels, or even just high levels. Each individual DM should come up with a solution that works in his or her own games, IMO.

Slaadmaster said:
7) I would have found it very helpful to have some example of deities created with these rules. I understand Gods and Monsters will help here.
In addition to Alzrius's helpful file and link, I'll mention that early versions of the Beta file had what will someday become Gods & Monsters as an appendix to Ascension, so those of us who have the early Beta files still have those writeups. They went from Disciple all the way up to Old One, eventually, though the Elder One (Surtur, which you presumably already saw thanks to Alzrius) and Old One (Algol, the Demon Star) were never fully completed before he took out the Appendix in favor of making a new book. With Upper_Krust's permission, you might be able to get an excerpted copy of that Appendix from somebody who has it, or an early Beta file. Possibly even from Krusty himself.

Slaadmaster said:
I especially liked some of the descriptions of the Omnific abilities (e.g. tenth sense - Give the player a copy of the adventure you are running, :) ). I also found some of the symbolisms for the Supreme Being and Akashic Records funny (the great wall as the DM screen) and the Beyond the Beyond paragraph.
Yeah, Tenth Sense is always a popular one and good for generating conversation. Plenty of conversations have been had about that and other Omnific abilities in other threads.



But on the topic of powerful abilities, now that Ascension is nearly complete, I have one of my own for U_K: what exactly did the Metempiric Abilities do? I'm finding it difficult to picture what could be so powerful as to require six Omnific ability slots to acquire, myself, given what you can do with just one. Would you mind posting a list, even if it's just in brainstorm form?
 

Howdy Belzamus! :)

Belzamus said:
Sorry if I missed something, but when does the print version come out?

Well I still don't have all the interior illustrations finished, so the print version will have to wait for that. Far be it from me to estimate when that will happen. :heh:

I plan to update the Ascension pdf next weekend (again) and at that point I should have more than half the interior art completed.

The minor complication with the remaining pieces of art is that I have a new art mandate which involves me doing bigger pieces for the more powerful monsters. So if an immortal illustration covers half a page the sidereal art will be a full page.

Incidently, regarding RPGNow, I emailed them, but as I suspected they don't work over the weekend. So apologies for my minor blunder on setting the release date prematurely.
 

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