Bad GM rulings? How would you rule?

My players are upset with the way I ruled a few things tonight. I'd like some input from the hivemind regarding how I should've handled this.

1A. My BBEG cleric cast blade barrier. I ruled that it took an entire 5-foot square along a line of squares (one side of the room to another). To keep things simple, the line was horizontal across the battlefield so I didn't have to deal with angles. I ruled this way because I couldn't see how a creature could be caught in the barrier when it was cast if the barrier ran down a grid line instead of across grid squares. Did I do this wrong?

1B. In the blade barrier example, can a creature with reach put their hand through the barrier to retrieve something on the other side (or attack with a touch spell, for instance) without taking damage? To my thinking, the damage would be automatic without any Reflex save.

1C. The spell allows a creature who is within the AoE at the time that the barrier is created to choose which side they end up on if they make their Reflex save. What if one side is occupied by (a) an ally or (b) an opponent? I ruled they could squeeze into a square with an ally, but couldn't move into a square with an opponent. Because the PC was Large (Medium-size creature who was under the effect of righteous might), they wanted to bull rush the opponent out of the way as they exited the blade barrier!

2. A blinded PC wants to attack an opponent. I allowed a player to convince me that the PC knows where the (effectively invisible) opponent is by the noise it makes, so the PC can make an attack and then I roll the miss chance. However, the Special Ability Invisibility, says that only with a Listen check that exceeds the DC by 20 can an invisible creature be pinpointed. Should I have been requiring the PC to roll against DC 0 (the opponent was in combat and casting spells) modified by +20 to pinpoint them, for a total DC 20?

3. A PC needs to be able to hear or see a spellcaster in order to use Spellcraft to identify a spell as it's being cast, right? Does sound penetrate a wall of force (actually, a forcecage in "windowless cell" mode)? Should someone trying to use Spellcraft while inside a forcecage be required to roll a Listen and/or Spot check to identify the spell? (Listen didn't really matter since the spell didn't have a verbal component, but it did have a somatic one.)

4. What can my BBEG do with control winds while inside an acid fog area? Can the controlling winds be used to push the fog away from its current location? The fog spell only talks about dispersing the fog with a severe wind, but control winds let's the spellcaster shape the winds, which to me means that they don't have to be "dispersed" but could be "corraled" and pushed in a particular direction. What do you think?

5. Last, the BBEG cast ethereal jaunt at the end of the encounter and fled by going straight down through the floor. The mage PC cast see invisible, but it was too late and didn't see anything. I asked the players if they wanted to stay in round-by-round mode (ie. were they going to chase after the BBEG or were they concerned about her coming back) and one of them said they wanted to drop out of combat and the others kept silent. Here's the problem: the BBEG had floated down one floor where the party had trussed up a character. The BBEG dismissed her spell and in the next round coup de grace'd the trussed up (and unconscious) character. Then made her escape without being ethereal. The players balked at having their companion killed, complaining that they could've gotten there in time to stop the BBEG. (That argument is actually debatable. They didn't know that the BBEG was even doing this and while they were in a hurry to leave, they had to maneuver around a blade barrier and a forcecage, so it would've taken them at least two rounds to be in a position to see their companion at the bottom of the stairs.) What is your opinion of this situation? I made sure that it was not I who made the decision to drop out of combat, yet two of the players (out of five) are blaming me and saying that the choice was mine. (Sigh)

To summarize:

1A. Blade barrier along a grid line or through a grid square?
1B. Reaching through a blade barrier automatically inflicts damage. True or False.
1C. Making the Reflex save requires the creature to move only into an unoccupied square (true or false). Or they can squeeze into an ally's square (true or false). Or they can bull rush an opponent and take their square (true or false).
2. A blinded creature must make a Listen check to pinpoint an opponent. The DC is 0? 20? Other?
3. Does wall of force block sound and/or vision? (It's invisible, so it seems unlikely to block vision. )
4. How does control winds interact with the fog spells, specifically acid fog?
5. Should I have forced the party to remain in "combat" mode?

I should point out that we're playing a very deadly module (RttToEE) and I've house ruled a number of player-friendly things: raise dead produces a negative level that goes away when the creature next levels up (not a true level loss), all "raise" spells cost one-half gp for the material components, a creature that drops below -10 isn't dead until the following round (allowing party members to get to them in time to heal them up to something above -10), PCs receive the effects of a wish spell when the player has a birthday (well, not a true wish, but very close), PCs start with a 35-point buy, and probably a few more that I can't remember off-hand.

I should probably split this up into separate posts, but as some of the questions relate to other ones, I figured I'd leave them all together.

Thanks for your help and opinions. I fear this may be something of a game killer for a players who lost one of the two mages he was playing to a destruction spell. He was kind of upset when he left, although nothing about the destruction spell needed any rule adjudications... :\

1A. My BBEG cleric cast blade barrier. I ruled that it took an entire 5-foot square along a line of squares (one side of the room to another). To keep things simple, the line was horizontal across the battlefield so I didn't have to deal with angles. I ruled this way because I couldn't see how a creature could be caught in the barrier when it was cast if the barrier ran down a grid line instead of across grid squares. Did I do this wrong?

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I'm pretty sure wall effects are supposed to be rather thin, and would normally be placed on a grid line. A Large or bigger creature could then be caught in the barrier. (I'm sure I've seen an actual rule or FAQ about this, but I couldn't find it.)

1B. In the blade barrier example, can a creature with reach put their hand through the barrier to retrieve something on the other side (or attack with a touch spell, for instance) without taking damage? To my thinking, the damage would be automatic without any Reflex save.

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The creature is passing through the wall, at least part of their body. The straightforward ruling is to take the damage and get a save for half. Personally, I would rule no damage on a successful save in a case like this.

1C. The spell allows a creature who is within the AoE at the time that the barrier is created to choose which side they end up on if they make their Reflex save. What if one side is occupied by (a) an ally or (b) an opponent? I ruled they could squeeze into a square with an ally, but couldn't move into a square with an opponent. Because the PC was Large (Medium-size creature who was under the effect of righteous might), they wanted to bull rush the opponent out of the way as they exited the blade barrier!

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I would rule that if you tried to move into another character's square, you would fall prone. If it were an enemy, you would provoke an AoO too.

2. A blinded PC wants to attack an opponent. I allowed a player to convince me that the PC knows where the (effectively invisible) opponent is by the noise it makes, so the PC can make an attack and then I roll the miss chance. However, the Special Ability Invisibility, says that only with a Listen check that exceeds the DC by 20 can an invisible creature be pinpointed. Should I have been requiring the PC to roll against DC 0 (the opponent was in combat and casting spells) modified by +20 to pinpoint them, for a total DC 20?

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Pinpointing the square occupied by an invisible creature in combat requires a DC 20 Listen check, per the invisibility rules.

3. A PC needs to be able to hear or see a spellcaster in order to use Spellcraft to identify a spell as it's being cast, right? Does sound penetrate a wall of force (actually, a forcecage in "windowless cell" mode)? Should someone trying to use Spellcraft while inside a forcecage be required to roll a Listen and/or Spot check to identify the spell? (Listen didn't really matter since the spell didn't have a verbal component, but it did have a somatic one.)

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A wall of force is invisible, so being inside the forcecage doesn't impede your visibility at all. There's no mention of it blocking sound especially well, so I would treat it as a normal wall for the purpose of Listen checks. The spellcraft skill doesn't mention needing spot or listen checks, so I think the gestures and sounds needed for casting a spell are apparent enough that you can try to recognize them as long as you can see and hear the caster. In a situation where it wasn't clear, I'd apply a base DC 0 Spot and Listen check, and modify from there for range and barriers.

4. What can my BBEG do with control winds while inside an acid fog area? Can the controlling winds be used to push the fog away from its current location? The fog spell only talks about dispersing the fog with a severe wind, but control winds let's the spellcaster shape the winds, which to me means that they don't have to be "dispersed" but could be "corraled" and pushed in a particular direction. What do you think?

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By the rules, all that wind can do with a fog spell is dissipate it. I'd be inclined to allow wind effects to control the fog more precisely than that, but I don't know if I'd say that control winds gave fine enough control... your options are pretty specifically laid out in the spell, and none of them sound like what you would want.

5. Last, the BBEG cast ethereal jaunt at the end of the encounter and fled by going straight down through the floor. The mage PC cast see invisible, but it was too late and didn't see anything. I asked the players if they wanted to stay in round-by-round mode (ie. were they going to chase after the BBEG or were they concerned about her coming back) and one of them said they wanted to drop out of combat and the others kept silent. Here's the problem: the BBEG had floated down one floor where the party had trussed up a character. The BBEG dismissed her spell and in the next round coup de grace'd the trussed up (and unconscious) character. Then made her escape without being ethereal. The players balked at having their companion killed, complaining that they could've gotten there in time to stop the BBEG. (That argument is actually debatable. They didn't know that the BBEG was even doing this and while they were in a hurry to leave, they had to maneuver around a blade barrier and a forcecage, so it would've taken them at least two rounds to be in a position to see their companion at the bottom of the stairs.) What is your opinion of this situation? I made sure that it was not I who made the decision to drop out of combat, yet two of the players (out of five) are blaming me and saying that the choice was mine. (Sigh)

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You're in charge of when combat ends. If the encounter wasn't over, you should have stayed in initiative. But it sounds pretty reasonable to say the encounter was over in your situation. If the players immediately said they were going to go take care of their companion, then I would have had them tell me how they were getting past the barriers, estimated how much time that would have taken, and then had them interrupt the BBEG if it made sense. Then you would roll a new initiative. (Don't forget it took the BBEG a std action to dismiss the spell, too.) If the players said they would just wait until the blade barrier ended, then they would have been too late.

Q1

1A. Blade barrier is an Effect spell, not an Area spell, and thus does not require it's point of origin on a grid intersection (per the Area rules). Unfortunately, "wall" is not really covered anywhere either, so placing the blade barrier in the middle of a square should be acceptable. How wide you rule the spell to be is completely DM-dependent. There is no rule stating if it's 1ft, 5ft, or infinitesimally small.

1B. The spell description doesn't define it so, I don't think it will do any damage (technically-speaking). It will, however, provide cover. My personal opinion is that it should do damage. If you have it do damage, you have to allow a reflex save. Not allowing the reflex save has no support in the rules at all and is really a bad idea.

1C. You move into the previous unoccupied square, i.e. the one holding the blade barrier! Say re-hello to that damage. However, if you really want to be nice, allowing the person moving to go prone in the occupied square is not a terrible ruling.

2. Yes, DC 20.

3. I'm not sure of you're question. No, WoF doesn't block vision and it doesn't say it blocks sound so it technically doesn't. If you choose to treat as a particular wall type, you should let your players know beforehand. Regardless, any spot/listen check would be to notice if the opponent was casting a spell. To determine the spell would require a spellcraft check.

4. The winds would disperse the fog. There's nothing in control winds that leads me to believe it could shape the fog and corral it anywhere. It merely blows in a specific direction.

Q5

That's a real toughie. It's up to you, the DM, when combat ends, not the players. Unfortunately, it becomes a metagaming activity when you keep combat going and there are no bad guys present. The players are bound to think about what could be happening and put 2 + 2 together. IMO, the best way to handle such things is to "end combat" and give the players extra time to plan their next actions. Don't prompt them or anything, but cut them some slack. Once they decide what their doing next, plan out their actions in rounds, perhaps with the players. They'll know something's up at this point, but it should be too late assuming you've already written down what they said would be their next actions. As DM, I might even go so far as to slyly suggest something like, "Okay, combat's over. What're you gonna do next, free Bob or go tend to that NPC you had trussed up in the next floor down?" 9 times outta 10 you'll get a response like, "Oh, we have time for the NPC, so let's ..." I would not count any discussion period against their 'rounds'.

Otoh, keep in mind that the BBEG fled. Was it really that realistic for him to end his get-out-of-jail-free spell and risk getting killed for the CDG? You need to make absolutely sure that you're not metagaming this portion of it, just because you know in retrospect that the PCs weren't immediately chasing him. If 2-4 rounds were all that it would take to catch, IMO, no way would someone lose their one and only ethereal jaunt just for a little revenge (crazy or not, he is still smart).

1A. The walls listed in the DMG range from 6 in to 5 ft. The spell clearly implies you can cast in someone's space. You did right.

1B. No, they can't put their hand through without taking damage, even with reach! But the spell calls for a save for half, certainly.

That's how I would rule. Technically I think they wouldn't take damage, since only the space they occupy is "them", and they only pass through if they change the space they occupy. But come on.

1C. The spell says that you can go to either space you choose if you make your saving throw. That means you can enter someone else's space if you make the Reflex save (a big no-no in Fantasy War Miniatures, I mean, D&D), because the spell says you can. That would provoke an attack of opportunity from an enemy. While sharing a space, creatures can't attack and I think enemies can only do grappling stuff. The Bull Rush idea makes perfect sense, but is not possible since bull rushes can only be done as an attack or part of a charge.

If the person fails their initial Reflex save, they would still get a second save for half damage, but they are still stuck in the wall. What happens if they begin their round and are stuck in the wall? I would say another Reflex save to get out; if failed AND the adjacent spaces are filled, they would have to succeed at a Bull Rush, even against a friend, or take additional damage for being stuck in the wall.

3. A Spot check would only be necessary if the "creature is difficult to see".

4. RAW no, you can't use Control Winds to change the location of an acid fog spell, only disperse it. If your villains are already beating up the party, this would not be a good way to get creative.

5. If one party member says yes we're out of combat rounds and the rest of the party is silent, the first one has spoken for them. If you had to get confirmation of each thing from each player, play would slow down considerably.

My opinion is that your adventure is too hard for your players to handle emotionally. My experience is that most players don't want really tough encounters, only vaguely tough encounters. Don't believe them if they say otherwise. Make it easier and you'll have fewer hurt feelings. That's what I've done in my campaign with success.

Wow, those replies were quick. Thank you.

Urbannen said:

My opinion is that your adventure is too hard for your players to handle emotionally.

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I suppose that's the case. Further, telling a player that a dangerous encounter is coming up -- and hinting at it in-game -- isn't likely to be taken too seriously the first time. But when you get to the level of spells that are save-or-die (mostly 6th and 7th level divine spells, in my case), one misstep results in a dead PC.

Regarding the answers...

It sounds like the GM can rule that the blade barrier is inside a square instead of along the edge and be considered reasonable. Cool, I got one right.

Some people said that reaching through should still provide a Reflex save. I was thinking that the blades are constantly spinning around, like a fan blade, so putting your hand in shouldn't get a Reflex save. Just like putting your hand on a hot stove wouldn't get a Reflex save -- it's not a reflexive action to pull your hand out. You purposefully put it in there, for heaven's sake! But I'll make a note to allow a Reflex save in the future.

Q 1C about "either side of the barrier" seems to be an interesting one. I hadn't thought about moving into an opponent's square would force you prone. I noticed no one made any mention of the size difference (Large vs. Medium). An argument could be made -- I think -- that a STR check or something similar might allow the Large creature to push the Medium one aside, but then that sounds like a bull rush. So I'll make a note that you can choose the side you exit on, but if you choose an opponent's square, you fall prone and provoke an attack of opportunity in doing so.

Requiring a Listen check DC 20 to pinpoint sounds like a common ruling, so I'll go with that in the future. Sounds like I shouldn't have allowed the player to convince me otherwise.

I didn't think wall of force or similar spells would block sound. One of the BBEG's other prepared spells was Otiluke's resilient sphere and it's also "Evocation [Force]" and specifically says nothing can pass through the sphere, in or out. I have to assume that includes light and sound, too. That's backed up by the use of "shimmering" in the first sentence. The wall of force doesn't say that, so I figured it was supposed to work differently...

I didn't really think control winds should be able to contain the acid fog and move it at the same time. (And I didn't push it; I just let it disperse.) I just figured that if the winds could be controlled by magic, couldn't they be placed such that the fog didn't disperse but was contained instead?

And I know the "combat mode" question was a tough one. The BBEG had disappeared and I had continued combat for another 3 rounds before asking if they wanted to break out of combat. In the round in which the BBEG disappeared, she dropped 30 feet and saw the trussed up creature. While the party did other stuff, she finished moving to place herself and dismissed the spell. Then one round each for the two creatures there, both unconscious. This is where we left it.

On her next rounds, she will step into the "D. Stone" and then into her chamber to collect her "things". I'm playing that for her to enter the stone that easily is due to her constant exposure to it as mentioned in BotB or the module FAQ. Notice she's not in a huge hurry. She still has 36 hit points and quite a few spells left. She'll find her stuff gone, then step into the stone again and start down to the first floor of the tower. Or she may heal up and try attacking from inside the stone. I haven't decided on that last part.

You can see that by the time I took the party out of combat, the attacks on their two companions had already happened. One player was upset because there was no noise. Huh?! With the blade barrier going, there's going to be some noise where the combat took place, and besides ... how much noise does it make to coup de grace an unconscious creature with a knife or dagger??

Thanks all. Good stuff. I'll chew on this a little more and then start writing notes in the margin of the SRD for these spells.

I would really allow people inside a forcecage to hear what's going on outside. You don't want to open the can of worms on the ability of oxygen to permeate the walls. Nothing better than quickened dimensional anchor->forcecage->watching BBEG asphyxiate to ruin your day as a GM.

@2: I would be real careful about house-ruling things into the game that "make sense" from a real-world perspective. It introduces funny things into the game, like if a fighter swings his sword through the wall, would his sword get sundered? It makes the spell MUCH more powerful than intended. Just have it provide cover; if the intent was for it to deal damage to those attacking through it, it would have specified that.

I think I'd rule like Queen Elizabeth the First:

"Off with his head!"