'Build' Madness.

Lizard

Explorer
Cadfan said:
Your argument is exactly as strong as the argument that, in 3e, power attack was "not optional" for a fighter with two handed weapon. In fact, its the same argument, except that you've added some non sequitor nonsense about hating on example characters.

I must have missed where half the Fighter feats did something extra-special if you took PA at first level, and the other half did something special if, I dunno, you took Weapon Focus (Longsword).

I like the idea of a talent doing X, and X+Y if you do A. I dislike the idea of neatly dividing everything down the middle to favor one style or another, and then calling these "optional builds".
 

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Belphanior

First Post
Lizard said:
I like the idea of a talent doing X, and X+Y if you do A. I dislike the idea of neatly dividing everything down the middle to favor one style or another, and then calling these "optional builds".

Did you completely fail to notice that only 2 out of the 6 powers shown do this? And that even half of the suggested powers from the builds (Deft Strike & Piercing Strike) have absolutely nothing to do with which Tactic you use?
 

Lizard

Explorer
Belphanior said:
... wut?

In 3e we already saw example characters for every class. In 4e we will see the same, except now they'll give us both an Archer-Ranger and a 2Weapon-Ranger, so that they'll both be represented with an example.

And all of a sudden the sky's falling. Really, I have no words for how monumentally moronic this seems to me. If WotC had only given a single build for the rogue class - say the brawny one - the forum would now be aflame with how they seek to push us into combat heaviness. And if they hadn't given any builds at all the game would be too hard to get into with no useful examples. It must suck being WotC; you get nerdrage no matter what you do. Even the most helpful of gestures will get you damned.

It's the interaction of "builds" and "Rogue Tactics". We have only a few interpretations:

a)It's mostly an accident that the suggested builds and the tactics match up. We'll know this when we see the other classes.

b)WOTC figures their players are too dim to figure out that if you've got a Tactic which gives a lot of bonuses to certain Talents, then, you should probably pick those Talents, and that, if said Talents rely on Strength, you ought to have a high Strength to take advantage of them.

c)"Builds" are, erm, built into the game in the form of the interaction of "Styles" (Rogue Tactics, Wizard School, Fighter weapon choice) and Talents, and thus, are "optional" in the sense that you don't have to follow them, but you're screwing yourself if you don't. It may be that the designers, once they were done with the class, looked at all the options and created the builds from them. It doesn't feel that way, though; it feels like the builds were decided upon and then talents created to fit.

(I never thought Stabby Ranger/Shooty Ranger was a particularly good design pattern, so, I'm not entirely pleased with it being mirrored in 4e.)

EDIT: I really don't dislike the Rogue -- the Apmersand article was the first 4e Preview to really get me excited about 4e in a positive way. I simply dislike the way that character focus is being narrowed (apparently, for all classes) in ways that are tightly mechanically integrated. Instead of taking the flexibility of the 3e fighter and rogue classes and expanding them, they've seemingly taken the 2 or 3 most common designs and hard coded them into the rules, with the notation that while you CAN ignore this, the rules really turn you into an idiot if you do.
 
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Lackhand

First Post
Lizard said:
It's the interaction of "builds" and "Rogue Tactics". We have only a few interpretations:

a)It's mostly an accident that the suggested builds and the tactics match up. We'll know this when we see the other classes.

b)WOTC figures their players are too dim to figure out that if you've got a Tactic which gives a lot of bonuses to certain Talents, then, you should probably pick those Talents, and that, if said Talents rely on Strength, you ought to have a high Strength to take advantage of them.

c)"Builds" are, erm, built into the game in the form of the interaction of "Styles" (Rogue Tactics, Wizard School, Fighter weapon choice) and Talents, and thus, are "optional" in the sense that you don't have to follow them, but you're screwing yourself if you don't. It may be that the designers, once they were done with the class, looked at all the options and created the builds from them. It doesn't feel that way, though; it feels like the builds were decided upon and then talents created to fit.

(I never thought Stabby Ranger/Shooty Ranger was a particularly good design pattern, so, I'm not entirely pleased with it being mirrored in 4e.)

EDIT: I really don't dislike the Rogue -- the Apmersand article was the first 4e Preview to really get me excited about 4e in a positive way. I simply dislike the way that character focus is being narrowed (apparently, for all classes) in ways that are tightly mechanically integrated. Instead of taking the flexibility of the 3e fighter and rogue classes and expanding them, they've seemingly taken the 2 or 3 most common designs and hard coded them into the rules, with the notation that while you CAN ignore this, the rules really turn you into an idiot if you do.
b), but careful where you toss the 'dim'. Either they can rely on you to remember which of the powers are boosted by which talent, or they can provide a nifty and helpful starter seed.

Reread the article, they say as much :)
 

Lizard

Explorer
Belphanior said:
Did you completely fail to notice that only 2 out of the 6 powers shown do this? And that even half of the suggested powers from the builds (Deft Strike & Piercing Strike) have absolutely nothing to do with which Tactic you use?

I guess we shall see if, in play (and when we have all the Talents to view), it will ever be worth taking a 'non focused' Talent over a focused one. 'Cause right now, I'm not seeing where I'd want a generic talent -- or worse, one focused on a different tactic -- then one which gives me synergies with the talents I've already got.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe we'll see things like a Brawny rogue Talent which synergizes with an Agile rogue talent so that there's a good reason to cross-train.
 

Cadfan

First Post
Lizard said:
I must have missed where half the Fighter feats did something extra-special if you took PA at first level, and the other half did something special if, I dunno, you took Weapon Focus (Longsword).
I love that you stuck in "at first level," because you had to find a way that power attack isn't like a first level power choice for a 4e rogue. The problem is, of course, that the fact that power attack isn't first level specific is a distinction that is absolutely irrelevant to the conversation. Its like saying "I must have missed the part where Power Attack can be abbreviated as DS, which Deft Strike clearly can be." Its a true statement that has no bearing on the conversation at all.

Also, for the record, nothing makes you pick the build's suggested first level feat at first level, either. At least no more so than is true for power attack.

Your argument is functionally identical to claiming that an example first level fighter with a greatsword and power attack is somehow non-optional because power attack gets a boost if you use a two handed weapon. I understand why you don't want to own this, because its silly. But own it you do.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I dislike the idea of neatly dividing everything down the middle to favor one style or another, and then calling these "optional builds".

But it's not down the middle. You can cross over. You can be agile and take high-damage, STR related abilities. You can be athletic and take high-Dex, Mobility-related abilities.

This is what they mean by "builds are optional": "We're not going to force you to stay within your build, you can take powers from other builds, you are free to treat all powers like a smorgasboard, but this group is closely related, so we're pointing that out for you."
 

Cadfan

First Post
Lizard said:
I guess we shall see if, in play (and when we have all the Talents to view), it will ever be worth taking a 'non focused' Talent over a focused one. 'Cause right now, I'm not seeing where I'd want a generic talent -- or worse, one focused on a different tactic -- then one which gives me synergies with the talents I've already got.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe we'll see things like a Brawny rogue Talent which synergizes with an Agile rogue talent so that there's a good reason to cross-train.
You can't see why a brawny rogue and an agile rogue might both want Tumble?

You can't see why an agile rogue who can deal 2d6+3 damage with Torturous Attack might still take it, even though a brawny rogue might deal 2d6+5 because he has a strength bonus of +2?

This does get to my one worry about 4e's "powers get a boost if you are X" system- player perception. I've seen players who will look at an ability and conclude that it is worthless because a different character class has a similar, slightly better ability. I do worry that in 4e the player of the brawny rogue will look at the agile rogue and at Positioning Strike, and think, "He can push someone two spaces with that talent, but I can push someone only one space. That means that pushing someone only one space is WORTHLESS!"

This is of course silly. But I do worry a little bit that people will think that way.
 

Carnivorous_Bean

First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
But it's not down the middle. You can cross over. You can be agile and take high-damage, STR related abilities. You can be athletic and take high-Dex, Mobility-related abilities.

This is what they mean by "builds are optional": "We're not going to force you to stay within your build, you can take powers from other builds, you are free to treat all powers like a smorgasboard, but this group is closely related, so we're pointing that out for you."

Exactly. I can't see why people are overlooking that important detail -- specifically, that the builds are optional examples. I don't like to make blanket statements, but it's starting to seem like some people at least are deliberately ignoring the patently-evident contrary statements in the preview itself in order to transform the preview into something they hate.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Carnivorous_Bean said:
it's starting to seem like some people at least are deliberately ignoring the patently-evident contrary statements in the preview itself in order to transform the preview into something they hate.

Just to point it out, CB, the mods don't generally look kindly on a poster that ascribes motives to other posters. I'd steer away from comments like this if I were you.
 

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