Mage-Brute build help

Slife · Apr 18, 2008

For first level here's a three feat combination that will give you that at first level. It's marginally cheesey, but not too overpowering.

First, take magical training. It's a feat from "player's guide to faerun". It gives you the ability to cast three cantrips each day as either a wizard or sorcerer (you choose). Sorcerer is your best bet here. The minimum caster level is 1 for these. *

Next, take the arcane disciple feat for some nice domain (Complete Divine, IIRC). Specifically, one with a nice second level spell

Now, you take the precocious apprentice feat (wizards.com website, reprinted elsewhere). It can only be taken at first level, requires caster level 1 as a sorcerer or wizard (which you have), and gives you the ability to cast a second level spell once per day if you make a DC 8 caster level check.

Final benefits:
You can cast three cantrips (choose to cast themetically appropriate ones). In addition, you can also cast a second level spell once a day. Not consistantly (you're still denying your magical powers), but it's still pretty potent (bull's strength at first level?).

Requirements:
Three feats at first level, 15+ Charisma. Managable if you are a human and can convince the GM that it's acceptable to swap out for the first level fighter bonus feat**, or if you can take a single flaw.

Further levels:
Probably prestige classing is the way to go. For purposes of qualification, you can cast second level arcane spells. Find something that has its own spell list, or just gives nifty powers and doesn't advance casting.

*Unlike many similar feats, this actually lets you cast them, instead of giving you a spell-like ability.
**Psychic Warrior works for the feat too, if you want a blend of low level powers.

Nifft · Apr 18, 2008

Some notes:

1/ You need to be a sixth level Sorcerer to qualify for Eldritch Knight, not fifth. Also, levels 6-8 of Battle Sorcerer are better than levels of EK, so take at least eight levels of BS.

2/ One level of Fighter is unnecessary. You can get more weapon and armor proficiencies from a single level of Dragonslayer, which you'll qualify for by taking Dodge and Iron Will. Not the best feats, but also not the worst. Fear immunity, +1 damage to Dragons, full BAB and full Spellcasting (for one level) are worth it.

3/ Dragonslayer 1 gives you the main pre-req to Spellsword, EK and Knight Phantom.

BS 8 / Dragonslayer 1 / Spell Sword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 -> level 15, full spellcasting, BAB +13.

Cheers, -- N

pawsplay · Apr 18, 2008

Nifft said:
Some notes:

1/ You need to be a sixth level Sorcerer to qualify for Eldritch Knight, not fifth. Also, levels 6-8 of Battle Sorcerer are better than levels of EK, so take at least eight levels of BS.

Fig 1/ battle sorcerer 5 yields BAB +4, and so can qualify for one level of Spellsword. Sorry I did not make that clearer.

2/ One level of Fighter is unnecessary. You can get more weapon and armor proficiencies from a single level of Dragonslayer, which you'll qualify for by taking Dodge and Iron Will. Not the best feats, but also not the worst. Fear immunity, +1 damage to Dragons, full BAB and full Spellcasting (for one level) are worth it.

Click to expand...

Can you take it at first level? No. Can you be sure you qualify or will ever qualify? No. Would you rather take Dodge, or would you rather get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat? Fighter is still the clear winner to me. You can ALSO take Dragonslayer, if you fancy it.

pawsplay · Apr 18, 2008

Slife said:
For first level here's a three feat combination that will give you that at first level. It's marginally cheesey, but not too overpowering.

Also, probably not legal.

First, take magical training. It's a feat from "player's guide to faerun". It gives you the ability to cast three cantrips each day as either a wizard or sorcerer (you choose). Sorcerer is your best bet here. The minimum caster level is 1 for these. *

Next, take the arcane disciple feat for some nice domain (Complete Divine, IIRC). Specifically, one with a nice second level spell

It requires knowledge (religion) 4, which means a Sorcerer cannot take it until level 5.

Now, you take the precocious apprentice feat (wizards.com website, reprinted elsewhere). It can only be taken at first level, requires caster level 1 as a sorcerer or wizard (which you have), and gives you the ability to cast a second level spell once per day if you make a DC 8 caster level check.

But not the ability to cast 2nd level spells. It may seem like a fine distinction, but there it is. The ability to sometimes cast a second level spell is not the same as the ability "to cast second level spells." While a sorcerer 4 may only have a certain number of spells, he has the theoretical ability to cast more than one, which the precocious apprentice does not. This distinction is upheld by official WotC sources.

Furthermore, you do NOT have caster level 1 as a sorcerer or wizard. You have caster level 1, and you cast spells as a wizard or sorcerer, but you have NO caster level as a sorcerer or wizard because you aren't one.

So aside from the fact you're using an optional feat from the DMGII and another feat from Munchkin's Guide to Faerun, this won't work. And in the end, it's pointless. You can get much better returns from real spellcasting. You will never match the number of slots of a real spellcaster. And slots make the Arcane Strikes go.

Nifft · Apr 18, 2008

pawsplay said:
Can you take it at first level? No. Can you be sure you qualify or will ever qualify? No. Would you rather take Dodge, or would you rather get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat? Fighter is still the clear winner to me. You can ALSO take Dragonslayer, if you fancy it.

I'd rather take Dodge than Practiced Spellcaster, and I'd rather keep my caster level AND spellcaster level both as high as possible. Seriously, the Sorcerer is already a level behind in spell acquisition. Delaying that even further is sub-optimal. You want high level spells ASAP.

Cheers, -- N

Slife · Apr 18, 2008

pawsplay said:
Furthermore, you do NOT have caster level 1 as a sorcerer or wizard. You have caster level 1, and you cast spells as a wizard or sorcerer, but you have NO caster level as a sorcerer or wizard because you aren't one.

So aside from the fact you're using an optional feat from the DMGII and another feat from Munchkin's Guide to Faerun, this won't work. And in the end, it's pointless. You can get much better returns from real spellcasting. You will never match the number of slots of a real spellcaster. And slots make the Arcane Strikes go.

Dude, chill out. The whole point of this trick is to have a melee character with limited spellcasting at first level. Yes, the character won't keep up with full casting later on. But, from the original post he "isn't a caster of any real merit", and, besides, that's an issue with any meleer. I'd suggest either
(A) qualifying for divine oracle with your two cantrips (choose divinations), and convincing the DM that it's reasonable for it to create a "real" sorcerer progression for you (it advances spells, so just have it start by giving first level sorcerer spells).
(B) retraining/getting a psychic reformation later on
(C) deciding to go with a wizardly route for your single second level spell (12 int), taking four levels of sorcerer and practiced spellcaster for your precocious wizard casting, and going Ultimate Magus all the way. That gives you a ton of spell slots to burn.

It was late at night, so perhaps I didn't explain clearly. I'm fairly certain that the three castings of two cantrips qualify you for "Prerequisites: Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15, arcane caster level 1st." or "able to cast arcane spells"

I also haven't used anything from the DMG II. Precocious Apprentice is in Complete Arcane.

Good call on the skills, though. I misremembered the requirements. That said, I'm sure there are nonmagical classes with spellcraft and knowledge religion that are in the allowable books (the NPC expert class, if nothing else).

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 19, 2008

Some issues (feel free to comment, of course):

1) Why Spellsword at all? Battle Sorc & Warmage both already have zero ASF in armor of a certain level, whereas SpSwd merely removes a certain % of ASF. In addition, by the time you qualify for the PrCl's spell-channelling, you've also qualified for Arcane Strike, not to mention Smiting Spell.

2) Practiced Spellcaster doesn't help this guy that much since it doesn't add spell slots, it just improves effective caster level.

3) While Ultimate Magus would boost # of spell slots, it depends upon having a decent Int- a stat this guy won't have. The same goes for taking any levels in divine caster classes that depend upon Wis. Remember, 2 of his 3 "mental" stats are dumps.

(Near as I can tell at this point, between "arcane" only reqs for Arcane Strike and MAD, the only reason to take a divine spellcasting class is to get access to more touch spells to channel for Smiting Spell.)

4) I'm probably going to take at least 1 level of Fighter for the bonus feat and the Martial weapon proficiencies, dependent upon what PrCl I'm aiming for. I've eliminated the possibility of taking the "Armored Mage" ACF- the downside is that you only get to ignore ASF when the spell you're trying to cast is close to your Ftr level.

However, when I looked up the Havoc Mage PrCl, I started thinking about the Marshal. With all armor/weapon profs of a Fighter, plus Medium BAB, and a whole bunch of Cha driven Auras, it would seem to have nice synergy. But would you find a PC who is physically impressive and charismatic, but otherwise an idiot to be a believable "leader" type? I mean, possibly as a hereditary position, but as an adventurer?

I'm also considering taking Paladin (w/the "Holy Warrior" ACF) instead of Ftr. You give up spellcasting in exchange for some bonus feats.

5) Some Feats I've put in the "neccessary" column: Smiting Spell, Arcane Strike, Battle Caster, Somatic Weaponry. Other strong possibilities: Blade of Force (reserve), Bloodline Feat (any, DCv1), B

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 20, 2008

Just a thought about a slightly different path on this...

What about Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath?

Nifft · Apr 20, 2008

Dannyalcatraz said:
Just a thought about a slightly different path on this...

What about Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath?

Inferior to Infernal Sorcerer Howl (mentioned up-thread).

Cheers, -- N

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 20, 2008

Because its a sonic attack, I'm guessing.

I still think the underlying Heritage feat for Draconic is better than Infernal.

I'm also trying to accumulate a list of some good spells (besides those listed above) for this build within the strictures of Smiting Spell, Arcane Strike, and minimizing somatic components in general (some, while having material components or foci, use the weapon as that component):

S1: Blades of Fire, Critical Strike, Shocking Grasp, Magic Weapon, Blade of Blood

S2: Sonic Weapon, Stretch Weapon, Whirling Blade, Energy Surge (Lesser), Enlarge

S3) Energy Surge

BTW- does anyone know of a list of Force Spells to maximize the Blade of Force reserve feat?