Mage-Brute build help

From Post#53 (mine) in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=223495&page=1

Actually, one spellcasting-warrior idea I've had floating around my head is the magically gifted idiot meatshield.

Visually, he'd look the archetypal warrior of his race and presumptive class. In reality, he'd be something like a Battle Sorcerer or Warmage (maximizing # spells/day) with high Str, Dex, Cha (his spellcasting stat) and if lucky, Con, with a low Int and Wis. Criminally low.

He'd have that feat that boosts the weight of armor an armored mage can wear (its name escapes me at the moment) and Arcane Strike (or similar feat).

Generally, instead of casting his spells, he channels them into his weapon to boost his martial prowess. His fellow partymates may not even be aware that he is technically an arcane caster. Once that gets revealed, his education on TRUE power can begin.

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As it turns out, a buddy of mine is considering starting a new campaign later this year, and I'd like to see what the best options are.

My bud is kind of conservative, like most of the players in our group- we're still playing a 3Ed RttToEE campaign which we expect to wrap up soon- so I expect to either be playing 3Ed or 3.5 with limitations. IOW, the more exotic the books needed for the build, the less likely.

Assuming:

1) No Psionics (probably the best I could do anyway would be making the Soulknife arcane instead of psionically based).

2) No 3rd Party, with possible exception of DCv1.

3) Core + Splats (for 3Ed) or Core + Completes (for 3.5.) most likely, everything else will probably be on a DM approval basis.

4) Stuff from Campaign specific books is a tossup: he may raid them- heck, he may even be using a prepublished setting, I don't know at this point- but I doubt he'd go deeply into a setting's supplements unless he was using it.

5) PHB races only is most probably the regime he'll choose, but feel free to give me suggestions that are Core. I'm perfectly willing to take a spellcasting stat hit to play a Half-Orc or similar race. I'm also willing to play a size S race as well.

6) Base Classes 50/50 possibility; PrCls, ACFs and Feats are more likely. I recognize that this part is the real hurdle, given that the Duskblade, Warmage and Battle Sorcerer are probably the best choices for this build. Don't let that stop you from making a suggestion based upon them. He knows I'm a role-player and not prone to trying to munchkin around to the point of wrecking campaigns- I can probably convince him to let me try something unusual.

7) I realize that there are certain Monk builds that can do this pretty well, but I want to avoid them. I want this guy to look like a warrior when first encountered, and about the only armored Monk PrCls I know of are the Shou Disciple and the Kensai, of which the latter is far more likely to be available. I may even go for some kind of Exotic weapon (Maul? Greatspear? Bladed Gauntlets?) or "suboptimal" fighting style (TWF).

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So, at this point, I'm thinking a UA Battle Sorcerer or Warmage gives me the most spells to pump into this guy's melee attacks. I need to find the right combo of classes, feats and ACFs out there.

Of course, keep in mind this guy isn't a caster of any real merit- he's a warrior who is channelling arcane energy into his strikes, and possibly doesn't even realize he's doing it.

Any ideas or refinements?

I'd start with Fig1/Battle Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight. The feat Armored Mage will allow you to wear medium armor, which is enough for standard-ish gear, or even mithril plate. Eldritch Knight has no skill requirements, so you can be stupid as you want to be. A single level of Spellsword allows you to gain a Fort boost without taking a hit to caster level.

For gear, invest in the highest level ring of wizardry you can. You will find you can now perform a stunning amount of damage with Arcane Strike, while still being able to cast utility spells.

Is F1 simply due to the bonus feat & full armor proficiency?

If not, what about Paladin (for a "Holy Fool"), Ranger (for Sword & Board TWF), or Barbarian (truly chaotic and reckless)?

I'm assuming you're suggesting EK because of the nearly full amount of spellcasting the PrCl gets, right? I ask because something like Spellsword already has spellchanneling built in (sort of).

Dannyalcatraz said:

Is F1 simply due to the bonus feat & full armor proficiency?

If not, what about Paladin (for a "Holy Fool"), Ranger (for Sword & Board TWF), or Barbarian (truly chaotic and reckless)?

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Which would you rather gave?
Rage, which you will hardly use past level 6 or so, along with fast movement which your spells can supercede easily, and two hit points;
Paladin, smiting for +1 damage and detecting evil, provided you adhere to a very strenuous code; or
Fighter, taking Improved Initiative as a bonus feat?

Ranger is not a bad choice; it offers more skills and better reflexes for 2 hit points. But you will need Quick Draw to ready your weapons after casting spells, and you will have to burn a feat on Armor Proficiency (medium) if you want to wear heavier armor. So it seemed less optimal for this concept.

I'm assuming you're suggesting EK because of the nearly full amount of spellcasting the PrCl gets, right? I ask because something like Spellsword already has spellchanneling built in (sort of).

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Right. But why sacrifice half your spellcasting potential to turn any weapon you wield into a weapon of spell storing? Why not just own a weapon of spell storing? Or make use of sudden quicken spell?

Dannyalcatraz said:

3) Core + Splats (for 3Ed) or Core + Completes (for 3.5.) most likely, everything else will probably be on a DM approval basis.

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What about a Warlock? With the blast shape invocation Hideous Blow they channel their eldritch blast through a weapon. I know it's sort of left field and it breaks a bit because the eldritch blast is an attack of its own. It could be Hideous Blowed through a bow as well.

Being a warlock also qualifies you for arcane prestige classes. Spellsword?

Anyway. That's sort of random. I tried the concept you have put forth with a barbarian/rage-mage. I don't remember the exact build but the character was a 5.5 (of 10).

5) PHB races only is most probably the regime he'll choose, but feel free to give me suggestions that are Core. I'm perfectly willing to take a spellcasting stat hit to play a Half-Orc or similar race. I'm also willing to play a size S race as well.

6) Base Classes 50/50 possibility; PrCls, ACFs and Feats are more likely. I recognize that this part is the real hurdle, given that the Duskblade, Warmage and Battle Sorcerer are probably the best choices for this build. Don't let that stop you from making a suggestion based upon them. He knows I'm a role-player and not prone to trying to munchkin around to the point of wrecking campaigns- I can probably convince him to let me try something unusual.

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I like humans. Love them feats.

The Battle Sorcerer is most likely the optimal. If you take Eschew Material component and are a sorcerer that reinforces your clueless concept.

The Warmage doesn't have a very buffing spell-list if I remember correctly. You'd have to rely on your Adaptive Learning spells. Not 100% about that spell-list.

Duskblade :\ Never played one.

Of course, keep in mind this guy isn't a caster of any real merit- he's a warrior who is channelling arcane energy into his strikes, and possibly doesn't even realize he's doing it.

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Hence my odd warlock idea.

Paladin will give you unbelievable saves if you go spontaneous arcane (Cha based). The drift incurred by being a caster dovetails with paladin so well. For this I recommend the aasimar.

pawsplay said:

Right. But why sacrifice half your spellcasting potential to turn any weapon you wield into a weapon of spell storing? Why not just own a weapon of spell storing? Or make use of sudden quicken spell?

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A weapon of spell-storing can be lost, quickened spells dry up pretty fast, having it as an ability is just that. An ability.

Assuming I take warrior levels at all, Fighter probably is the way I'd go, at least for a little bit. I'm not sure 100% which feats I'd choose as a 1st level fighter- a lot of that would depend on how I fully envision this guy- a true brute/gentle giant with a 2 handed weapon? A speed demon who kills with a flick of his wrist or a quick thrust?

The others? Those are long shots since all 3 also depend more upon the Int and Wis dump stats for this PC. (However, I'm not averse to playing Dudley Doright.")

The Paladin build might be of use if I eventually go the Kensai or Shou Disciple route- both are open to any PC who meets the requirements, not just monks, and both have NICE warrior abilities. No spell progression, of course.

Barbarian would be if I chose a race with that as a FC, or if I see a Havoc or Rage mage build as being the way to go. Of course I can only know that decision once I'm fully informed as to more campaign details.

Ranger is the wild card. The class abilities & bonus feats could come in handy.

OK- just to clarify- as I recall, you don't need materials components, etc. if you're using Arcane Strike or similar abilities/feats. Am I wrong?

If that's the case, I won't bother with Eschew Materials- or most Metamagic for that matter- actually casting stuff should be very difficult and by the book. I MIGHT go for Explosive spell down the road, merely because that is the kind of Metamagic that would appeal to this kind of guy.

As for spell lists, etc., they don't really matter. This guy isn't about casting the spells, just channelling them- most often as just arcane energy to boost his martial prowess. IOW, the spell list's depth doesn't matter as much as the PC's spells/day.

Eventually, he'll figure out he can actually cast spells, but even then he'll tend towards the blaster role.

I hadn't considered the Warlock. I generally disliked the class, but you have an excellent point in that it may be quite suitable for this build. I'll give it a closer look. Thanks!

As a final thought. What about the Hexblade. Warrior-type arcane caster. Spells don't come into play immediately.

Their powers are totally covert. It's just bad luck. If you could cut a deal to swap the familiar for something else it might be worthwhile.

Nah.

Sounds like fun.

Arcane Strike only adds to a single weapon, so two handed or sword and board works better then two weapon.

If you are do 3.5 and using the completes like you mention you might, Complete Mage has the Abjurant Champion, which is a 5-level full BAB, full casting PrC that's nto hard to get into. It also has an arcane strike-like ability called arcane boost. It's not as good as arcane strike for damage, but does let you burn spells for other things like save boosts. It also eventually makes your caster level equal to your BAB if it would be lower.

IIRC, Spellsword needs full armor proficiency, so if you're going ranger or barbarian you don't qualify out of the box. Paladin has fantastic Chr synergy, but normally you can't advance paladin after you multiclass out of it. There is a feat in Complete Adventurer that allows this with a sorcerer, but that takes a feat.

If you do go for alternate class options, look at the Divine Companion for Sorcerer in Complete Champion. You sac spells to it ahead of time, and ten can realeast them either as a bonus to AC and saves, or as healing. Works thematically with a paladin, and if you use abjurant champion to raise your CL up high that also works well.

Definitely a fun and flavorful build, good luck!

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

Derro said:

As a final thought. What about the Hexblade. Warrior-type arcane caster. Spells don't come into play immediately.

Their powers are totally covert. It's just bad luck. If you could cut a deal to swap the familiar for something else it might be worthwhile.

Nah.

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Too bad no Tome of Magic Binder would be great.
I like Dwarfs if want a Race against type:
I add Bard 7/Fighter 2 (if want feats that badly)/Sublime Chord 10/Whatever X. Battle Caster lets you wear Meduim/Mithral Heavy.
You don't need Int/Wis; just Cha and physicals.
You get spells for arcane Strike (can't take the feat till 9th though since gain 3rd level magic at 7th).
You are skilled warrior.
Sublime Chord requires a Knowledge arcana, spellcraft, perform, listen, and lastly profession skills but Bard has lots of skills points.

Instead of playing music: Buff up using it.
The Feat Ironskin Chant: Gives you DR/- until start of nexr turn for a swift action. Only uses 1 Bardic Music.
Snow Wardance (name wrong I think) in Frostburn gives bonus to Bards = Cha, but I can't remember what.

I like the concept, Im not sure its do-able with your restrictions. 3.5 doesn't modle it well.

Duskblade would fit the best – it’s a sword-swinging caster from level 1. although int is your casting stat, you can avoid spells with DCs – and 11 or 12 int would work until you can buy a headband. If you agree not to learn shocking grasp the potential for abuse is lower. Other wise it’s a pretty balanced class.

I think Battle Sorcerer, and Warlock are your only other options. Otherwise your BAB and HP are going to be so low that you are never going to make it on the front line. Avoid any LA, that’s going to hurt survivability and spellcasting. Eldrich knight suffers from low hp, 5 levels of d4 and then d6 Abjurant champion is a better (although a little cheesy)

Your other option is cleric. It gives you enough hp, BAB and armor. Make him stupid, and low wisdom >13. Have him be divinely gifted, and unconnected to any hierarchy. I can see some god like Kord, granting power this way. Never cast healing spells. Rename some common spells: divine favor, bless, shield of faith, 2nd level physical bluffs. See if your DM will allow spontaneous domain casting, as a feat or swapped for Spontaneous healing. This would let you enter every fight enlarged. Get a spell storing weapon, put your best inflict wounds in it.

What level are you starting? How long do you expect the game to go?
Any chance you could spend a bunch of levels as a fighter and then rebuild your character? (see PHB2) this might fit your concept the best.