Skill Challenges as combat encounters?

I want to open my 4e campaign with a bang and not necessarily a straight forward combat, as much of the combat system has already been well previewed. Reading up on skill challenges got me thinking that they might be very useful tools in running chaotic. mass battles in which the main goal is not for the party to achieve certain small objectives, like eliminating a leader or tough monster, or taking out the flanking group. For example, the PCs may begin the game on opposite sides in a small fight between warring lords fighting for ownership of a nearby mine or something similar. During the battle, I want to introduce some of the villains and elements of the campaign at large, so I was thinking both sides would be attacked by a force of minor devils and cultists (the cult will feature prominently in the game as an ongoing antagonist), and the battle will quickly turn into a fight for survival.

I was thinking running the chaotic struggle to escape as a skill challenge might work really well and it seems, with what we know of the framework so far, that it would fit. PCs could use their skills, abilities, and maybe even combat powers to some extent to earn successes. Setting it up as a ratio of successes to failures would be less than ideal, though, as what would happen if the number of failures are reached first? Death, by skill check? So I was thinking failures, maybe in groups of two, result in small scale combats - such as being confronted by three enemy minions as the PC rushes to a copse of trees for cover from airborne devils, or a PC has to hold off a spined devil for two rounds until the flow of the fight carries it away from his position - meant to only last a couple rounds. It wouldn't take much prep work to have a few such situations ready to go.

So, what do you all think, does this sound like an interesting, fast paced way to run a larger scale, chaotic encounter like this? Does it sound like something that would fit with what is known of skill challenges so far?

Thasmodious said:

Setting it up as a ratio of successes to failures would be less than ideal, though, as what would happen if the number of failures are reached first? Death, by skill check?

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There are plenty of other possible negative consequences for failing the skill challenge. The Pcs are captured, perhaps. Or maybe the failure means the devils destroy the local village or something else the PCs care about. Or failure means a big battle with a demon boss instead of safe escape.

Mearls just posted about skill challenges in his campaign: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15612871#post15612871

Mearls said:

I used a skill challenge to represent the guards' state of readiness. The fighters' approach was louder than they liked, but Kot used a spell to distract the guards. Unfortuantely, the fighters kept making noise, prompting the bandits to send a few guards out to patrol the base of the towers. The fighters were able to secure a rope and climb to the top of one tower just as the guards made their descent to the ground from the second floor door.

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Mearls said:

sigil_beguiler said:

Mearls, how seemless would you say the skill challenges you used were in context to rest of the adventure.

Could you for example, have a partial skill challenge, and after say a failure enter a combat-situation then afterwards continue on with a skill challenge?

Also thanks for posting, always fun to read the campaigns/adventures the developers are having

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The skill challenge was completely seamless. As the fighters crept up to the tower, I told the players they were now in a skill challenge. That was the only diversion from the game and roleplay it involved. I asked for checks, the characters tried different stuff to remain hidden (like Kot's spell to distract the guards), and so on.

The repercussions of their failures were nice and organic, and I think that's key. For example, early on the guards on the tower argued over whether they had heard anything, and when the PCs climbed to the roof the commander was in the middle of ordering a guard patrol.

Admittedly, most of the players are in R&D and have experience with the game, but I think that most groups will hit this stage early on. The key as DM is to weave the effects of the challenge into the narrative. The first few times it'll be a challenge, but I think with practice it becomes more natural.

Skill challenges are designed to cover a wide range of time periods. For instance, you might create a skill challenge for a PC who wants to win membership of a guild. You might allow him one check per day to represent his attempts to earn membership, and things like completing adventures that help the guild earn automatic successes.

You could also build a challenge that allows for the chance of combat. For example, one challenge might be to disenchant an altar dedicated to Juiblex. If the PCs rack up too many failures, or maybe even after X number of checks, succeed or fail, a few oozes and jellies emerge from cracks in the temple's wall to attack the intruders. The fighter and wizard have to hold them back while the rogue and cleric work together to ruin the wardings that give the altar its power.

In many ways, the skill challenge mechanic is a new way to organize and handle bookkeeping for a series of skill checks. IME, it's very flexible. I'm really excited to see what sort of thing DMs do with it.

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VERY interesting. It appears as if the rules are more then just a skill challenge - the example lists the use of a spell, and mixing the challenge with a fight.

I also like the fact that it covers multiple time frames. One of my first ideas regarding to encounters was that encounters could be overlapping and act on different time scales (like a social encounter that requires a lot of leg-work, with occassional combat or short-term encounters in between). This seems to be covered with (skill) challenges.

It seems a nice framework, that seems easily be transplantable in non-D&D games. (Not really a surprise to me, this one.) It seems to provides a way to structure an adventure or even a campaign with a lot of flexibility.

Mustrum_Ridcully said:

VERY interesting. It appears as if the rules are more then just a skill challenge - the example lists the use of a spell, and mixing the challenge with a fight.

I also like the fact that it covers multiple time frames. One of my first ideas regarding to encounters was that encounters could be overlapping and act on different time scales (like a social encounter that requires a lot of leg-work, with occassional combat or short-term encounters in between). This seems to be covered with (skill) challenges.

It seems a nice framework, that seems easily be transplantable in non-D&D games. (Not really a surprise to me, this one.) It seems to provides a way to structure an adventure or even a campaign with a lot of flexibility.

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Indeed. This skill challenge stuff is really growing on me. You could have a careening wagon that you need to stop before the driver is thrown and killed but you could just as well lead a troop of recruits through goblin territory. The time frame is days. Success in this challenge means 80% of the recruits make it to to Ft. Borderland. Failure means only 20% make it. It's a DC 15 (10/5).

Warlord: I use Diplomacy to whip the recruits into a disciplined unit on the very first day. "You maggots, you call yourself solidiers?!"
Ranger: I plot a safe course in my mind's eye using Geography.

...And so on. This is so much fun!

I already have a couple scenarios in my head for skill-challenges (some of which are done in the middle of combat (beginning of each turn you roll for the skill-challenge)).

-Fighting on the top of a speeding locomotive.
-Escaping a mind-controlled mob by leaping across roof-tops.
-Rappelling down the side of a cliff while fending off attacks from flying-minions.
-Being part of a shield-wall holding back charges.
-Gaining enough allies in the prison to escape without notice.

Fallen Seraph said:

I already have a couple scenarios in my head for skill-challenges (some of which are done in the middle of combat (beginning of each turn you roll for the skill-challenge)).

-Fighting on the top of a speeding locomotive.
-Escaping a mind-controlled mob by leaping across roof-tops.
-Rappelling down the side of a cliff while fending off attacks from flying-minions.
-Being part of a shield-wall holding back charges.
-Gaining enough allies in the prison to escape without notice.

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How do you propose doing skill challenges in midst of combat, exactly?
(Nice challenges by the way, particulary the last one).

Frostmarrow said:

How do you propose doing skill challenges in midst of combat, exactly?
(Nice challenges by the way, particulary the last one).

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That sounds like a DM challenge - challenge the DM to use the tools to do something awesome!

My approach:
Basically two things are resolved each round - the progress of the combat itself, and the progress of the skill challenge.
The question is how do you combine them? Is each attack also one step along the challenge? Or do we roll skill checks alongside? Do we have to decide whether to move/attack/minor act and contribute to the challenge?
There's still some "design space", and I am not sure what's the best way.
Maybe the mix could be like this: If you want to attack and contribute to the challenge, it's a difficult check. If you just want to move, it's a moderate check, and if you don't do anything but concentrate on the challenge, you have a easy check.

In the afromentioned train-running example, the goal of the challenge might be to drive the attackers off the train, or to get safely of the train (leaving the other side "stranded").

I think Mearls made an interesting example about disenchanting the altar: If the disenchanting in question is a skill challenge, it would be possible to have cross-trained fighters with Arcana and/or Religion that are able to things like that. I have often missed this kind of skills and rituals in many fantasy RPGs; magic is often binary, either you have it or you don't.

If skills can be used for rituals, anyone with the right skills can consecrete an altar, draw a protective pentagram or learn the true name of a demon. I would be very happy if it turns out to be that way.

Nice spot on Mearl's post, ainatan. Certainly seems like the designers have thought along some of the same lines on this. And nice ideas to the rest of you, I really like the potential skill challenges have for the game.