Why does epic level play entail treating death as a "speed bump"?

shadow · Apr 17, 2008

From what I've read I'm fairly excited about 4e. I especially like how epic levels are going to be built into the system rather than tacked on. However, I read something from ainitcoolnews that really worries me about epic level play...

""And Epic is just plain silly. I honestly see a lot of folks stopping at paragon – but for those that want to get into truly EPIC level, mythologically powerful gaming, epic will do the trick. With class abilities that begin with phrases like Once per day, when you die..." (Emphasis mine)

Why must epic play treat death like a speedbump? Can't a game be epic and still treat death seriously. The heroes of greek mythology fought alongside and occasionally challenged the gods, but even Achilles wasn't able to be "raised". No one was able to challenge Gilgamesh, but even he had to accept his own mortality. The heroes of WuXia frequently do stunts that most mortals can't even dream of, but they never come back from the dead.

I can accept heroes wielding extraordinary powers and even challenging the gods, but the "death as a speedbump" idea just seems silly. I have not found it in any real world folklore and mythology or fantasy liteature. The only place I have seen such an idea is in console role-playing games (where you give a fallen party member a pheonix down in the middle of battle). Even console games, however, often try to work around that idea by declaring fallen party members are really just "unconscious".

I would like to play in a game that emulates myths and legends of old. Heroes would wield extraordinary powers, but even they would have a reason to think twice about dying. Will it be possible to play this type of game in 4e? I'm not talking about stopping at the "paragon tier"; I would like a truly epic game, but one where death is not treated as a mere speedbump.

hong · Apr 17, 2008

Play Exalted. You can parry mountains, level cities, reform corrupted societies... but you'll never, ever have resurrect.

Wormwood · Apr 17, 2008

shadow said:
I would like to play in a game that emulates myths and legends of old. Heroes would wield extraordinary powers, but even they would have a reason to think twice about dying. Will it be possible to play this type of game in 4e?

Yep. The same exact way you would play such a game in 3e, 2e or 1e: remove spells and effects that raise people from the dead.

Lacyon · Apr 17, 2008

hong said:
Play Exalted. You can parry mountains, level cities, reform corrupted societies... but you'll never, ever have resurrect.

Only Reincarnate.

VannATLC · Apr 17, 2008

*cough* Gandalf *cough*

Wormwood · Apr 17, 2008

shadow said:
The only place I have seen such an idea is in console role-playing games. . .

It's also been a feature of D&D for a little over 30 years.

two · Apr 17, 2008

Wormwood said:
Yep. The same exact way you would play such a game in 3e, 2e or 1e: remove spells and effects that raise people from the dead.

He wasn't asking "how can I make the game do what I want."

That's absurdly easy to answer.

He was asking "why is the game set up this way mechanically at Epic levels?"

It's a valid question. I can imagine Epic D&D play with easy raising, and I can imagine Epic D&D play with no easing raising. Why did WOTC choose the former rather than the latter?

You could even allow "raising" at non-epic levels, but reinstate "no raising" for Epic (for example, if you are killed by a god or being of a certain divine status/power you stay dead forever barring another god intervention/quest).

Nothing wrong with asking the question.

Seule · Apr 17, 2008

If you don't want to change the rules, redefine death. Say that, at Epic level, you can hang on a few extra rounds after you should have died, so that the instant-raise powers still work.
Give the PCs the 'Blessing of the Death God', that Death grants some leeway before collecting their souls because they did a favour for him (or because that way they'll kill many others).
Change how you look at conditions, and that may help you wrap your brain around the rules.
Or not. It's worth a try, though.

For raising later on, via ritual, this won't work obviously.

--Penn

hong · Apr 17, 2008

two said:
He wasn't asking "how can I make the game do what I want."

That's absurdly easy to answer.

He was asking "why is the game set up this way mechanically at Epic levels?"

It's a valid question. I can imagine Epic D&D play with easy raising, and I can imagine Epic D&D play with no easing raising. Why did WOTC choose the former rather than the latter?

That's also absurdly easy to answer. Because that's how epic play is, in 3E; and in turn, that's a logical result arising from how resurrection is a canonical feature of the game.