The Dual Class (ver. 2)


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  1. #1
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    Ignore Exen Trik

    The Dual Class (ver. 2)

    This is just a simple attempt to create a more 50/50 even split form of multiclassing, without creating some kind of complicated alternate multiclassing system to do so. This is actually a single class, that just combines features of two others. Of course we don't have all the information on the classes yet so there might yet be complications, and I might have missed something important besides, but as is it seems to work.

    Let me know what you think!



    The Dual Class
    "I've broken the mold, and now I've broken you."

    Stats

    Role: Any or Hybrid
    Power Source: Any or Hybrid

    Hit Points at 1st level: Use the lesser value from either component class
    Hit points per level: Use the lesser value from either component class
    Healing surges: Use the lesser value from either component class
    Defense Bonus: Choose one of the defenses from either component class

    Weapons: All types provided by both component classes
    Armor: All types provided by both component classes
    Trained Skills: The two skills granted by Walk Two Paths, plus three others. These can be chosen from the skill list of either component class.


    Class Features

    Walk Two Paths
    A dual class character gains the benefit of any two different multiclass feats, even if the character does not meet the prerequisites. This does not prevent him from taking a multiclass feat normally, but it cannot be either of the same versions provided by this ability

    Superior Dabbler
    For the abilities granted by the feat benefits of Walk Two Paths, the dual classed character grains additional uses. For any power or class feature provided once per encounter, the dual classed character can use it twice per encounter. For granted daily abilities, they similarly become usable twice per day, but no more than once per encounter.

    Hybrid Technique
    You may choose one build option from each component class, such as the Rangers fighting styles or Rogue Tactics, and gain the full benefit of each.


    Powers

    At-Will
    Choose one at-will power from each component class

    Encounter, Daily and Utility
    These powers may be freely chosen from either component class power list.



    Edit: Updated to version 2, numerous changes
    Last edited by Exen Trik; Wednesday, 7th May, 2008 at 07:20 PM.

 

  • #2
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    Ignore malcolm_n
    That's a pretty sweet Gestalt Idea for 4e, and the game isn't even out yet. hehe.
    Intuitive, easy to read, but a major buff to controller combos when we get another (HP). Maybe add a small clause to include the lower hp if both classes give it? Also, would it be okay with you if we used this along with our Original creations as a play option?
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  • #3
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    Ignore Exen Trik
    Quote Originally Posted by malcolm_n
    That's a pretty sweet Gestalt Idea for 4e, and the game isn't even out yet. hehe.
    Intuitive, easy to read, but a major buff to controller combos when we get another (HP). Maybe add a small clause to include the lower hp if both classes give it?
    I was considering that, but I didn't want to complicate it too much right away, and the loss of other class features might be a fair exchange. I thought an average would be the safest... but this may be a case where 'best of either' is the better option. I'll change it to that.

    Edit: Actually, I ended up making an exception if both classes have higher or lower hp, so now both dual defenders and dual controllers have appropriate hp.

    Also, would it be okay with you if we used this along with our Original creations as a play option?
    Sure, use this however you like!
    Last edited by Exen Trik; Saturday, 3rd May, 2008 at 06:14 PM.

  • #4
    Interesting, and yes a definite gestalt... but I have a question. Why bother with special rules for a combined class and document it as such? Just make a gestalting rules if desired.

    4e Gestalt

    Choose any two classes and combine them into a single class for advancement purposes. All starting values use the "best of" approach for each class, so a gestalt character gets the best starting hit points, best number of healing surges, best health advancement, and so on.

    Class features of each class are fully available to the gestalt character, and build options for each class should be selected with any common features retained on a "best of" approach as above.

    The gestalt has +1 number of abilities available of each type per level (so +1 number of at-will, +1 number of encounter, and so on). All abilities are fully selectable from either class. (Not getting double-powers because class powers feel like they are already quite powerful, and more powers produce more total power than a straight linear relationship).

    Feats that have a class prerequisite are available if either of the gestalt's classes match it. A gestalt fighter/cleric could take any cleric class feat or any fighter class feat. The same is true for paragon and epic paths.

    Gestalt characters do not multiclass using feats. A gestalt character may elect to multiclass instead of taking a paragon path.
    Katahn

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    Ignore malcolm_n
    Quote Originally Posted by katahn
    Interesting, and yes a definite gestalt... but I have a question. Why bother with special rules for a combined class and document it as such? Just make a gestalting rules if desired.

    4e Gestalt

    Choose any two classes and combine them into a single class for advancement purposes. All starting values use the "best of" approach for each class, so a gestalt character gets the best starting hit points, best number of healing surges, best health advancement, and so on.

    Class features of each class are fully available to the gestalt character, and build options for each class should be selected with any common features retained on a "best of" approach as above.

    The gestalt has +1 number of abilities available of each type per level (so +1 number of at-will, +1 number of encounter, and so on). All abilities are fully selectable from either class. (Not getting double-powers because class powers feel like they are already quite powerful, and more powers produce more total power than a straight linear relationship).

    Feats that have a class prerequisite are available if either of the gestalt's classes match it. A gestalt fighter/cleric could take any cleric class feat or any fighter class feat. The same is true for paragon and epic paths.

    Gestalt characters do not multiclass using feats. A gestalt character may elect to multiclass instead of taking a paragon path.
    Your suggestion would work great as a true gestalt (read: High powered) option for characters. But for somebody wanting to flavor their character for a regular game, the OP option is viable.
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    Ignore Exen Trik
    Ok, the combos were looking a bit unbalanced with Superior Dabbling sometimes giving the best features of both classes, so I toned it down to only apply to one, and made each effect specific. Also, dual classed wizards ended up getting a full additional at-will power with the old rule which started looking better than a normal wizard, so I gave them cantrips instead.

    Some issues that I had:
    For the warlord, I presume it works the same way as the clerics healing word, and is normally usable twice per encounter. I'm somewhat leery about the rangers benefit, because they don't seem to get much else for class features anyway, but I don't know where else I could go with it. I'm a little unsure what the warlocks feat does anyway, but it's curse ability seems to be available once per encounter (how else could it use the pact?) and it is in line with the other striker powers so I went the same way with it.

    It looks better to me, but I'm still only eyeballing it balance-wise. If anyone tries this out I'd love to hear about it.

  • #7
    I'd go with the same rule for Encounter/Daily/Utility powers that you have for At-Will powers. Albeit it doesn't affect 1st level.
    The Hitpoints and armor are also slightly skewed, as I suspect Wizard will be a very popular part of the combination.
    There's no point in being a pessimist. If you have a problem, try explaining it without mentioning how disappointed you are with 4E.

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    Alright I revised it again, setting it at a solid 2.0 version. Barring some new info on multiclassing, class features or the like this should be the last update before the books come out. Changes in this version:

    -Now the effect of superior dabbler is weaker but effects both multiclass feats equally
    -Hit points and healing surges are the lesser value of either class.
    -Reduced added skills from 4 to 3, limited them to component classes list.
    -Various wording changes

    Quote Originally Posted by muffin_of_chaos
    I'd go with the same rule for Encounter/Daily/Utility powers that you have for At-Will powers. Albeit it doesn't affect 1st level.
    The ability to freely access each classes power list, and take advantage of two classes build options, is pretty much the point of the class. It's exactly what the standard multiclassing options don't allow. I'm not too sure how I could cut it anyways, even at higher levels with more powers it would be awkward.

    The Hitpoints and armor are also slightly skewed, as I suspect Wizard will be a very popular part of the combination.
    Yeah I weighed the pros and cons for different builds, and came to the same conclusion. The fighter/wizards will need to be happy with armor and powers for defense, and likely will be investing in the toughness feat.

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    Ignore Exen Trik
    Thanks to the new warlord at will powers, I can create a complete sample dual classed character! Billy here is focused around combat movement, both of his allies and himself. And since his allies are a gang of bloodthirsty halfling rogues, this proves to be very effective.

    Enjoy!


    Billy Flintwick
    Local Halfling Bandit Leader
    "Say hello to my little friends!"

    Stats
    Level 1 Dual Class (Rogue/Warlord)

    Role: Hybrid (Striker/Leader)
    Power Source: Martial

    Race: Halfling
    Size: Small
    Speed: 6 squares
    Vision: Normal

    Str: 14 (+2)
    Dex: 17 (+3)
    Con: 12 (+1)
    Int: 14 (+2)
    Wis: 11 (+0)
    Cha: 20 (+5)

    Hit Points: 24
    Bloodied: 12
    Healing Surges: 7 (+6 hit points)
    Armor Class: 17 (26 vs opportunity attacks)
    Defenses: Fort 12, Ref 17, Will 15
    Skills: Thievery (+10), Intimidate (+10), Streetwise (+10), Acrobatics (+10), Stealth (+8)
    Weapons: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged
    Armor: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail; light shield

    Equipment
    Weapons: Short Sword (+5 attack, 1d6+2 damage, Light Blade)
    Armor: Hide (+3 AC), Light Shield (+1 AC, +1 Ref)

    Racial and Class Features
    Nimble Reaction: +2 bonus to AC for opportunity attacks
    Second Chance: Cause an enemy to reroll attack against self - 1/encounter
    Bold: +5 on saving throws vs fear
    Sneak Attack: +2d6 against target you have combat advantage against - 2/encounter
    Inspiring Word*: Lets target use a healing surge, plus a bonus to healing of 1d6+5 - 2/day (1/encounter)
    Artful Dodger: +5 bonus to AC for opportunity attacks
    Inspiring Presence: Ally gains "6 hit points when using an action point
    *Effect is yet to be confirmed

    Feats
    Defensive Mobility: +2 bonus to AC for opportunity attacks


    Powers
    Note: these assume a short sword is used

    Commander's Strike - Warlord Attack 1
    At-Will - Martial, Weapon
    Standard Action Melee weapon
    Target: One creature
    Attack: An ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack
    against the target
    Hit: Allys basic attack damage +2

    Deft Strike - Rogue Attack 1
    At-Will - Martial, Weapon
    Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
    Target: One creature
    Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
    Attack: +6 vs. AC
    Hit: 1d6+3 damage.

    Positioning Strike - Rogue Attack 1
    Encounter - Martial, Weapon
    Standard Action Melee weapon
    Target: One creature
    Attack: +6 vs. Will
    Hit: 1d6+3 damage, and you slide the target 5 squares.

    Pin the Foe - Warlord Attack 1
    Daily - Martial, Weapon
    Standard Action Melee - weapon
    Target: One Creature
    Attack: +5 vs AC
    Hit: 3d6+2 Damage; for duration of encounter target cannot shift while two allies or ally and self are adjacent to it.
    Last edited by Exen Trik; Saturday, 10th May, 2008 at 10:29 PM.

  • #10
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    Ignore malcolm_n
    Lol, I had a whole thing written up here, but lost track of it, being tired and all. I'll post something soon. For now, I was gonna write up some dualies to see how they compare to stand-alones
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    ___Now Available from NwP - Arawn's Quest, Zen's Heritage, and Children of Destiny by Edward Larel

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