TSR Q&A with Gary Gygax

So few modules? Not what they used to be? Guess you haven't discovered Necromancer Games or Goodman Games. Both are very much like they used to be. So are Troll Lords Games older d20 modules as well as their new C&C modules. There have been plenty of good modules put out for d20, just, apparently, not enough people knew about them. Dungeon Magazine is still great for maps and ideas, even with me no longer running 3E games.

Even some of the modules put out by WOTC are exceptional.

I hate the "motorcycle helmet law" approach WOTC is taking here. Adventuring means danger, a chance to get killed without bubble-wrap over all the sharp corners in the dungeon, and DMing means creativity and judgment. By and large, D&D players are smart enough that we don't need child safety locks. It almost seems like they're afraid to get sued if a character is killed. I want the Holodeck Safety Protocols off.

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Yes, but a few things have changed that might encourage the change in viewpoint.

1) Games are a little more story based nowadays. I think players are a little more attached to their characters nowadays, thinking of their favorite novels and such, so permanent death is a little less palatable. It's also why the game was adjusted so poison is no longer an "instant kill" (and Gary's LA does that kinda thing as well).

2) Today's gamers have a lot of choices. The games that compete with the RPG are the computer games, such as CRPGs, MMORPGs, MUDs, etc. In those games, multiplayer games ressurection is automatic, while a single reload can take care of death. So, please tell a player growing up with those options that you want "Safety Protocols Off".

3) The Wizard staff that absorbed TSR is more "gamist" than the original game writers. They see things in probabilities, stat analysis, and measure things precisely. That's probably why they encourage player and DMs to be more or less on equal footing, since a "bad" DM could turn off 4-6 times his number off of the game. I guess they're mostly concerned with tournaments and other rules.

I'm not agreeing with everything the gang at Wizards say. I actually agree that sometimes death can be intriguing. However, I also would suggest DMs recognize what influences the younger generations and appeal to them as well. We need more people to survive, and that might mean changing some of the ways we develop our games and run our games.

There's a great article by a Wizard's staff member that shows just how he adapted the game for his 7 year old son. (I like the part where the kid says he gets hit with an arrow trap. )

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060630a

Treebore said:

So few modules? Not what they used to be? Guess you haven't discovered Necromancer Games or Goodman Games. Both are very much like they used to be. So are Troll Lords Games older d20 modules as well as their new C&C modules. There have been plenty of good modules put out for d20, just, apparently, not enough people knew about them. Dungeon Magazine is still great for maps and ideas, even with me no longer running 3E games.

Even some of the modules put out by WOTC are exceptional.

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I find the C&C modules put out by TLG to be a bit lacking in the classic feel. However Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics are wonderful. Other than that though I only picked up a few modules for D20/3.x and wasn't overly impessed with any. Sunless Citadel was fun though. RttTOEE was a horror story on the other hand. I grew to hate that modules.

Treebore said:

So few modules? Not what they used to be?

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Everything's better 'in the old days', don't ya know that? Even the food tasted better.

Flexor the Mighty! said:

I find the C&C modules put out by TLG to be a bit lacking in the classic feel. However Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics are wonderful. Other than that though I only picked up a few modules for D20/3.x and wasn't overly impessed with any. Sunless Citadel was fun though. RttTOEE was a horror story on the other hand. I grew to hate that modules.

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Well I bought a lot, even most, probably even darn near all of them (Paradigm, Scarred Lands, Kalamar, WOTC, Necromancer, Fiery Dragon, Goodman, Troll Lords, and several other I know I am forgetting) most of them were at least good, some were crap, some were diamonds hidden in sub par layout and writing (FD's NeMorans Vault and Giants Skull and the Witchfire Trilogy's first module by Iron Kingdom comes to mind here). Plus there were some that were good only for maps and NPC's.

So, in my opinion, wait, I also want to say I agree that return to the temple of horrible modules was indeed horrible, but again, great maps and some good NPC's. Now back to what I want to say, a lot of good stuff was put out and it sounds like you missed a lot of good adventures pre-made for you. If you buy Goodman's stuff than at least you found some of it.


C&C lacking in the classic feel? Put Assault on Blacktooth Ridge down next to Keep on the Borderlands and page through them together. If that doesn't prove what I said then nothing will.

JohnRTroy said:

Yes, but a few things have changed that might encourage the change in viewpoint.

1) Games are a little more story based nowadays. I think players are a little more attached to their characters nowadays, thinking of their favorite novels and such, so permanent death is a little less palatable.

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I disagree that PC death's have become less palatable. I think it depends on the player. I remember crying when my first character got killed (when I was 11), and laughing about the good war story last time I lost one as part of a TPK.

I think the game works best when a PC's death matters, and it can happen.

Paintball was a lot more fun the first time we played, but after we realized being shot didn't really hurt, we didn't play it the same way, so it was lame . . . risk is fun . . . lack of risk is boring.

JohnRTroy said:

2) Today's gamers have a lot of choices. The games that compete with the RPG are the computer games, such as CRPGs, MMORPGs, MUDs, etc. In those games, multiplayer games ressurection is automatic, while a single reload can take care of death. So, please tell a player growing up with those options that you want "Safety Protocols Off".

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Wouldn't choice imply having different games make different choices? Auto-respawn is a choice. Death with consequences is another.

I only play with my friends. I don't kill my friends' characters for "fun", but I want them to know the dice fall where they may because, like ABC Sports motto went: "The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat". Without losing, there's no winning.

The real fun of the game is when you can say: "Wow, that was close. We almost got slaughtered, but we did it, and everybody's OK." It's a fine line in DMing to get that Indiana Jones grabbing his hat under the crushing stone door thrill, without crushing too many archeologists . . . very tough to do without fudging dice rolls, but I'm trying to run a "clean" no safety protocol campaign now.

I guess that's the real generational difference. Me and my friends grew up before the era of "everybody gets a trophy for playing". No risk feels like no achievements to me.

JohnRTroy said:

3) The Wizard staff that absorbed TSR is more "gamist" than the original game writers. They see things in probabilities, stat analysis, and measure things precisely. That's probably why they encourage player and DMs to be more or less on equal footing, since a "bad" DM could turn off 4-6 times his number off of the game. I guess they're mostly concerned with tournaments and other rules.

I'm not agreeing with everything the gang at Wizards say. I actually agree that sometimes death can be intriguing. However, I also would suggest DMs recognize what influences the younger generations and appeal to them as well. We need more people to survive, and that might mean changing some of the ways we develop our games and run our games.

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I guess so.

BTW, I'm not saying death is fun . . . I'm saying the death is unpleasant, and that risk makes adventuring exciting. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Who dares wins. It's much safer to do it in an RPG than to actually race motorcycles or whatever.

I think the best way for gaming to survive is to keep it exciting and fun . . . winning is good, but winning when you think you survived by the skin of your teeth but triumphed through superior cunning, luck, and teamwork with your friends, that's golden. Most of us geeks don't get to triumph at team sports too often.

Treebore said:

So few modules? Not what they used to be? Guess you haven't discovered Necromancer Games or Goodman Games. Both are very much like they used to be. So are Troll Lords Games older d20 modules as well as their new C&C modules. There have been plenty of good modules put out for d20, just, apparently, not enough people knew about them. Dungeon Magazine is still great for maps and ideas, even with me no longer running 3E games.

Even some of the modules put out by WOTC are exceptional.

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True, and I somewhat acknowledged this in my post, but it just isn't to the extent it once was back in the day Yes, some of the WotC mods were good. But I do find them, in general, difficult to locate. I guess it's just the area in which I live.

John Drake said:

Hi there Gary
Since the recent topic is that of modules and design, I was hoping to get some insight or an opinion from you ( but I'm really hoping for both! ) . So, being a gamer who started out with classics like B2 and the Giant series, Needle, and the like, I have a great fondness for the adventure module. But I've noticed that production of these items is not quite what it once was back in the 80's and 90's. I realise there are some out there (like Rob Kuntz's stuff from Pied Piper, his freelance stuff and of course yours as well), but by and large it ain't what it used to be. Why do you think that is?

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Howdy!

I will not get onto analysis of other designers' work, but I can venture that the modules you do not find particularly appealing are thos that contain a lot of story and dialog and little in the way of action and adventure. Many are written as if playing a game were play acting or, worse, an art form :\

Personally, I love them, great for reading and I always found it helped me design my own dungeons/scenarios, using them as a guideline as what one should or should not do and excellent source of inspiration. I've heard arguments that state that since adventure modules are for the DM only, it therefore limits the sales (profit margin) so they're not worth producing . I don't totally believe that (although of course, I could be wrong), because I've always been in groups that had multiple DM's, and we change it up every few weeks or so, taking turns running games. Anyway, just wondered if you had any thoughts or input on the subject, as I haven't a clue about the industry really! Thanks! It's very much appreciated. Ciao!

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Here I will expound a bit. WotC can say that now, because they screwed uo the market for modules with the d20 license, thus guaranteeing a superfluity of such product, much of it of questionable value, thus reducing the appeal for modules, and altogether not promoting the D&D logo ro game.

The claim that they could not license one or several reputable small companies to produce D&D modules with that mark on them because of lacking personnel to peruse and approve or not the modules submitted is sepcious IMO. The licensing fee and subsequent royalties would cover most, if not all, of the expense. the advertising and promotional value of the licensed priducts, ads therefor, would surely make up any shortfall.

When I was at TSR the modules produced at least paid for their creation and production, while many sold in quantities over 50,000 units, a profitable product for the publisher, the distributors, and retailers carrying it.

Of course it requires that the module be written by a capable designer...

Cheers,
Gary

Treebore said:

So few modules? Not what they used to be? Guess you haven't discovered Necromancer Games or Goodman Games. Both are very much like they used to be. So are Troll Lords Games older d20 modules as well as their new C&C modules. There have been plenty of good modules put out for d20, just, apparently, not enough people knew about them. Dungeon Magazine is still great for maps and ideas, even with me no longer running 3E games.

Even some of the modules put out by WOTC are exceptional.

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Without contesting any opf the above, the sales for those modules are generally pretty low, making them marginal products. This is because there are too many modules being produced for the size of the consumer audience, and many produced in the past have been of low play quality, so GMs are reluctant to purchase more.

Cheers,
Gary

gideon_thorne said:

Everything's better 'in the old days', don't ya know that? Even the food tasted better.

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You mean when you weren't here to plague us?


Gary