Rituals and trained skills

olivgor · May 30, 2008

Hello, first post after a VERY long lurking period

Concerning Rituals, the Ritual Caster says you have to be trained in either Arcana or Religion to take the feat (and it's given to Wizards and Clerics).

But when you have the feat, do you then need to be trained in the skill to use a Ritual ? For example, if my Wizard get hold of a Discern Lies ritual, can he use it, even though he is not trained in the Religion skill ? Or can he use Raise Dead, which is a Heal skill ritual, but without a skill check required ?

Seems strange to me…

Surgoshan · May 30, 2008

If you're untrained in a skill then that just means you don't have any bonuses to it. Except for the bonus from the ability for the skill. And half your level. So your tenth level wizard with an Int of 20, untrained in Religion, would have a bonus of +10 to his roll (+5 from intelligence, +5 from being level 10).

Basically, the point with untrained skills now is that even though you're not trained in it, you've still picked something up along the way. A 20th level character not trained in athletics has still been through the grinder so that he's capable of feats not available to a first level character untrained. Climbing a brick wall will be a coin toss for the 20th level character, but your first level nub will need a natural 20 (assuming str of 10).

Cadfan · May 30, 2008

I know that's the general rule, Surgoshan, but this is a more specific question- does a character with the Ritual Caster ability have access to every single ritual, ever, regardless of whether he's trained in its base skill?

In other words, lets say I have a cleric. My cleric is not trained in Nature. Can my cleric still cast Nature related rituals?

Vorhaart · May 30, 2008

Not to derail the conversation, but does that there are no longer trained-only skills? I can see that getting a little silly, where even the dumbest fighter-type can point out that this is INDEED the holy symbol of Dugong, whose religion died out thousands of years ago.

Also, I heard you can find rituals on scolls. If that's true, do they require the feat, training in the skill, or both/neither?

Destil · May 30, 2008

I read those rules over 3 or 4 times, and I came to the conclusion that nothing prevents you from trying a ritual untrained (hopefully common sense in some cases...)

malraux · May 30, 2008

Cadfan said:
I know that's the general rule, Surgoshan, but this is a more specific question- does a character with the Ritual Caster ability have access to every single ritual, ever, regardless of whether he's trained in its base skill?

In other words, lets say I have a cleric. My cleric is not trained in Nature. Can my cleric still cast Nature related rituals?

I don't see any reason he wouldn't be able to. But note that rituals often involve a skill check with the result affecting how well the ritual works. So the cleric might be able to pull off the ritual, but will get a lesser animal or have a shorter duration than someone with a higher check could get. For example, a low role on a remove disease ritual can kill the character, so you still want a trained person casting the ritual.

Gargoyle · May 30, 2008

Destil said:
I read those rules over 3 or 4 times, and I came to the conclusion that nothing prevents you from trying a ritual untrained (hopefully common sense in some cases...)

This.

"You must meet two requirements to master a ritual. You must have the Ritual Caster feat, and your level must equal or exceed the ritual's level." p298

I chose Animal Messenger for my cleric's free ritual at level 1...I'm not trained in nature skill, but my high Wisdom should help. The skill check determines how long the animal will travel to deliver the message.

Nowhere does it say that you must be trained in the key skill to use a ritual.

drjones · May 30, 2008

Yeah the skill check will be a problem in some cases (and yes anyone can use any skill, but the fighter will probably have a -1 on his check vs. the level 1 cleric with a 9 or an 11 so he will will have a slim chance of knowing something no one else does.). Raise dead is a little weird but if it really is a ritual and not a prayer to a particular god then a smart wizard should be able to muddle through it I guess, maybe they come back missing a finger or with one undead leg or something?

bert1000 · May 30, 2008

olivgor said:
Hello, first post after a VERY long lurking period

Concerning Rituals, the Ritual Caster says you have to be trained in either Arcana or Religion to take the feat (and it's given to Wizards and Clerics).

But when you have the feat, do you then need to be trained in the skill to use a Ritual ? For example, if my Wizard get hold of a Discern Lies ritual, can he use it, even though he is not trained in the Religion skill ? Or can he use Raise Dead, which is a Heal skill ritual, but without a skill check required ?

Seems strange to me…

I think it is a little strange too, but it appears that you only need to be of a certain level and have the ritual feat. Some do require skill checks, but many do not. So, you'll have wizards doing some rituals that were divine spells in 3e and clerics doing some arcane.

You could house rule that you must pick a specialty with the ritual feat -- either arcane, heal/religion, or nature. Of course you'd have to add a lot more rituals since most are arcane now.

Gargoyle · May 30, 2008

Vorhaart said:
Not to derail the conversation, but does that there are no longer trained-only skills? I can see that getting a little silly, where even the dumbest fighter-type can point out that this is INDEED the holy symbol of Dugong, whose religion died out thousands of years ago.

Also, I heard you can find rituals on scolls. If that's true, do they require the feat, training in the skill, or both/neither?

There are no "trained only" skills, but there are some functions of specific skills that you must be trained to try...for instance you can try to detect magic if you are trained in the Arcana skill. I noticed in Theivery that "The DM might decide that some uses of this skill are so specialized that you are required to be trained in it to have a chance of succeeding."

You can find rituals on scrolls, or buy them, or create them if you've mastered a ritual. "You can perform a scroll's ritual even if you don't have the Ritual Caster feat, regardless of the level of the ritual."

Rituals and trained skills

olivgor

First Post

Surgoshan

First Post

Cadfan

First Post

Vorhaart

First Post

Destil

Explorer

malraux

First Post

Gargoyle

Adventurer

drjones

Explorer

bert1000

First Post

Gargoyle

Adventurer

Similar Threads