Is the cold damage feat combo worth it?

kerbarian

Explorer
The feats offer an obvious combo for classes with cold powers: Wintertouched and Lasting Frost. If you can keep hitting the same targets with cold damage, you'll always have combat advantage and do +5 damage, including with zone and ongoing damage.

That's a pretty major bonus, and I wouldn't have any problem spending the feats for it. What I'm not sure about, though, is whether it's worth focusing on cold-based encounter and daily powers to try to take advantage of it.

I've only looked into wizard builds in detail, and it looks like the combo would reach its peak at level 13 (it's only available starting at 11), when you could have Frostburn, Ice Storm, Winter's Wrath, and Icy Rays. That's a lot of extra damage you can stack up due to Lasting Frost, especially because Frostburn and Winter's Wrath both deal damage in the following round as well.

Even at that peak, though, there are issues. The cold spells generally target Fort, which (from a quick scan of the MM) tends to be one of the strongest defenses, sometimes higher than AC.

Frostburn is a decent spell, but Prismatic Burst seems like a generally stronger choice for the level-13 encounter spell. It blinds its targets, and you can keep them blind for an extra round with an orb.

Also, you only get extra cold damage when you hit the same target with multiple attacks in a row, so even intermittent misses can slow down the combo a lot.

So... is the feat combo truly a good deal, or is it just an attractive decoy? Also, has anyone looked into whether it can be worthwhile for a warlock?
 

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Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
It seems like a fun option which is distinctively only available to cold specialists.

I don't know exactly what you mean by 'an attractive decoy' but personally I don't think there is much point or fun in attempting to super-optimise a character for maximum possible damage at any particular level; I prefer to have characters with a fun theme, and I think this gives better support to a fun theme than has previously been possible.

I think I've heard that star pact warlocks have some cold based powers, so they might benefit from it.
 


WOLead

First Post
For Star Pact, Lasting Frost is definitely something to keep an eye on with Curse of the Dark Frost. Daily skill that does Frost Damage, does Frost Damage if they move, and you can Sustain Minor it for more Frost Damage on your turn until they make their saving throw. 5 extra damage each time that curse goes off can build up pretty high. Not to mention the level 29 skill.

The hard part is you don't have an At-will to use it with for cheap damage, like a Wizard does.
 


kerbarian

Explorer
DonAdam said:
All you need is a frost weapon. Right?
You have to "hit with a power that has the cold keyword" to activate the vulnerability. However, if the rest of your party has frost weapons, they can wail away and get the free damage :)
 

NMcCoy

Explorer
Consider a Rogue with a frost weapon - free sneak attacks! - that perhaps dabbles in Wizard for some ice spells. I'm really, really tempted to try this one.

I also like the feats that encourage type-theming, in general. I'm seriously contemplating a Staff of Defense wizard (wielding a Thunderwave Staff) with the Solid Sound feat (remember, Shield is a force spell!) and the various thunder-boosting feats as well as Gauntlets of the Ram. Tricky part is he's dependent on three abilities (int, wis, con), but all three contribute to a different defense so I think there's a pretty solid build potential there. Throw on leather armor proficiency and toughness and you've got a wizard who's not afraid to mix things up in melee range (and if he does get into trouble, all it takes is a solid shove from Thunderwave and he's got breathing room again).
 

kerbarian

Explorer
Plane Sailing said:
It seems like a fun option which is distinctively only available to cold specialists.

I don't know exactly what you mean by 'an attractive decoy' but personally I don't think there is much point or fun in attempting to super-optimise a character for maximum possible damage at any particular level; I prefer to have characters with a fun theme, and I think this gives better support to a fun theme than has previously been possible.

I think I've heard that star pact warlocks have some cold based powers, so they might benefit from it.
It definitely works for a theme. In fact, it inspired one of the first 4e character ideas I had -- a dragonborn frost mage (with ice breath, naturally). Definitely not an optimized character, though...

What I was asking was whether the feats are an attractive decoy for optimizers. Does it really make for an optimized build, or does it only look like it at first glance?

I tend to enjoy working out the most optimized character build I can think of and then comparing my actual theme- or character-based builds to that to make sure they're not too awful. I wouldn't want to build a character purely around combat optimization, but I also don't enjoy feeling useless in a fight. Though that's hopefully much less of a concern in 4e.
 

frankthedm

First Post
NMcCoy said:
Consider a Rogue with a frost weapon - free sneak attacks! - that perhaps dabbles in Wizard for some ice spells. I'm really, really tempted to try this one.
free sneak attacks? how so?
 

Stogoe

First Post
kerbarian said:
I tend to enjoy working out the most optimized character build I can think of and then comparing my actual theme- or character-based builds to that to make sure they're not too awful. I wouldn't want to build a character purely around combat optimization, but I also don't enjoy feeling useless in a fight.
The thing about optimization is that it breeds the feeling of being useless in a fight by the very act of optimizing. It creates the disease, and then exalts itself as the cure.

If you're able to bring the hurt with your character and meaningfully contribute to the party, trying to squeeze that extra 1.5 damage per encounter on average out of the system isn't worth it for all the mental anguish you'll put yourself through.
 

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