Lots of statistics from the Monster Manual

Aria Silverhands · Jun 5, 2008

keterys said:
I'm a DM... who makes monsters for other DMs... and wants them to be balanced and wants to compare against the published monsters. And I find this information useful.

The DMG already has everything you need to make balanced monsters.

The more you post, the more I seriously question your sanity. It's a real shame, because I liked some of your posts, but power game propaganda? Seriously? Nice.

One of the WizO's agrees with me. They agreed the stormwind crap was basically propaganda propagated by power gamers in an attempt to legitimize their game breaking character choices. Optimizing is just another attempt by power gamers to try and hide from the negative stigma attached to power gaming and being a munchkin.

First they were munchkins, so they tried to hide behind the word power gamer. Now they're trying to hide behind optomizer and it's just ridiculous. RPG's are role playing games, not roll playing adventure games. The numbers are merely there to aid with conflict resolution and to provide a semblance of balance between characters. Or at least a common starting ground.

WhatGravitas · Jun 5, 2008

What I find interesting is the consistent difference between AC and Reflex, which coincides with the +2/+3 bonus you get through proficiency. I think the number crunch shows the underlying maths.

Which is good, if you know the maths, you learn how to wing it better and can design for it better!

Cheers, LT.

Pants · Jun 5, 2008

Aria Silverhands said:
The only value this has is for power gaming number crunchers who have no interest in play cooperatively, rather than competitively. Thus ruining the game for others that just want to have fun as is and not agonize over every single number.

OH NOEZ!! SUMONE ON TEH INTERNETS IS DOING SUMTHING CONTRARY TO MY TASTES! TEH GAME IS ROOINED!!!1111!!

Blackeagle · Jun 5, 2008

Aria Silverhands said:
The only value this has is for power gaming number crunchers who have no interest in play cooperatively, rather than competitively. Thus ruining the game for others that just want to have fun as is and not agonize over every single number.

The DMG already has guidelines and plenty of tables to insure what you create using the system is balanced.

I'm with keterys, as a DM who's going to be making a lot of monsters stuff like this is great. It's an excellent addition to the tables from the DMG.

Aria Silverhands · Jun 5, 2008

Pants said:
OH NOEZ!! SUMONE ON TEH INTERNETS IS DOING SUMTHING CONTRARY TO MY TASTES! TEH GAME IS ROOINED!!!1111!!

Yeah, because I'm talking about 4th edition as a whole, rather than just the game (aka the campaign) the power gamer is in and ruining.

Kzach · Jun 5, 2008

Aria Silverhands said:
Propaganda by power gamers. Nothing more and not relevant at all.

Yeah, we're going to have a manifesto any day now.

WhatGravitas · Jun 5, 2008

Aria Silverhands said:
Yeah, because I'm talking about 4th edition as a whole, rather than just the game (aka the campaign) the power gamer is in and ruining.

Actually, that kind of things is helpful to your cause.

If people number crunch and understand the system better, they can produce a game where powergamers have less points of attack. Furthermore, a well-made maths base, helps people who are not into powergaming, as they can play an enjoyable game without having to put up with accidental powergamers (like, when somebody picks up something broken and is suddenly a powergamer, just because he liked the fluff of the overpowered option).

Cheers, LT.

jdrakeh · Jun 5, 2008

Aria Silverhands said:
Yeah, just what a roleplaying game needs to encourage: number crunching. It's my opinion that number crunching like this only undermines what a roleplaying game is supposed to be and I blame it on crpg's, mmo's, and the internet.

Ironically, CRPGS, MMOs, and IRC (or PBP) RPGs typically require that players perform far less math than they do when they sit down to play a paper and pencil RPG.

doctorhook · Jun 5, 2008

Let's just do what's done on the Gleemax boards*: ignore Aria, and hope he either gets on topic or goes away.

OP: Nice work! Bookmarked for reference. (...You'll be adding future monster supplements to your data, right?

)

*Granted, not very effectively.

NewfieDave · Jun 5, 2008

Aria Silverhands said:
One of the WizO's agrees with me. They agreed the stormwind crap was basically propaganda propagated by power gamers in an attempt to legitimize their game breaking character choices. Optimizing is just another attempt by power gamers to try and hide from the negative stigma attached to power gaming and being a munchkin.

First they were munchkins, so they tried to hide behind the word power gamer. Now they're trying to hide behind optomizer and it's just ridiculous. RPG's are role playing games, not roll playing adventure games. The numbers are merely there to aid with conflict resolution and to provide a semblance of balance between characters. Or at least a common starting ground.

You are wrong to group destructive players who seek to break the game with players who want their characters to be effective at their roleplaying choices.

One of my last 3.5 characters was a high-level remake of my favorite 2nd edition character. The character wasn't just my favorite, it's also a DM and group favorite because of roleplaying and good times from campaigns past. When I made the 3.5 version I tried to stay as true to the tactics and personality of the original, then min/maxed so I would be effective within my concept. It is a game with random factors after all, and I know my DM is going to be challenging me. It makes sense to me that if I'm going to devote myself to a character I should do my best to rise to those challenges.

The Stormwind Fallacy is totally, 100% correct. It's only "propaganda" when game-breaking, non-roleplaying munchkins link it and think they win at D&D. That type of misuse is like saying gravity exists so it's a good idea to jump off a cliff. It's not a good idea, but that doesn't prove Newton wrong.