Lots of statistics from the Monster Manual

the Jester

Legend
Aria Silverhands said:
One of the WizO's agrees with me. They agreed the stormwind crap was basically propaganda propagated by power gamers in an attempt to legitimize their game breaking character choices. Optimizing is just another attempt by power gamers to try and hide from the negative stigma attached to power gaming and being a munchkin.

Not only is this an appeal to authority phallacy, it's a terrible one. "OOOOH! A WizO agrees with you!" doesn't really bear much weight when it comes to an argument.

Aria Silverhands said:
First they were munchkins, so they tried to hide behind the word power gamer. Now they're trying to hide behind optomizer and it's just ridiculous. RPG's are role playing games, not roll playing adventure games.

I'm glad that you know the One True Way to Play D&D. Thumbs up.
 

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WayneLigon

Adventurer
Aria Silverhands said:
It's my opinion that number crunching like this only undermines what a roleplaying game is supposed to be and I blame it on crpg's, mmo's, and the internet.

Only if you want to remain ignorant about the hows and whys of encounter building, or about possible pitfalls in the game system. Arming yourself with a working knowledge of the math behind the game has all kinds of advantages that have nothing to do with suppossed power gaming.

The more you learn about the inner workings of your game, the better prepared you are when someone tries to pull some rules-lawyering BS or thinks he's come up with the next 'bag-o-rats' exploits - people who don't learn this lesson tend to get bulldozed the first time they have to deal with someone even moderately exploitive.
 

I love power-gaming. Power-gaming is great. A role-playing game that doesn't allow me to power-game is not to my taste.

There is, off course, a limit. I don't like power-gaming if there is only one good power-gaming build is. That gets boring.

I want to take a concept like "Swashbuckler, great at seducing women", or a concept like "Wizard specializing in illusions and enchantments to avoid having to kill people." and have rules that i can use to achieve this concept with the best effect, and be as combat effective as if I had just played a Weapon Specialist Fighter focusing on the biggest and baddest weapon out there.

Now, after a short excursion to the realms of my wet power-gaming fantasies, head back to the real topic:

Awesome list. I think it shows that there is a consistent math behind all the rules.
 


Rel

Liquid Awesome
Aria, given how universally negative the reaction has been to some of your posts, I'd suggest reevaluating your posting style if you want your message to be heard.
 

med stud

First Post
Aria Silverhands said:
Yeah, just what a roleplaying game needs to encourage: number crunching. It's my opinion that number crunching like this only undermines what a roleplaying game is supposed to be and I blame it on crpg's, mmo's, and the internet.
...?

How does a statistical analysis of traits in the MM undermine roleplaying? Can you please give a bullet point list how it does that?

Also: CRPGs and MMOs are perfectly playable without crunching any numbers what so ever. The computer does that for you. TT RPGs are more math intensive. Also, the internet? What does that have to do with how good you roleplay an elf?

Seriously, this may be a strong emotional issue for you, but try to make some logical arguments of those emotions.
 



Aria Silverhands

First Post
med stud said:
How does a statistical analysis of traits in the MM undermine roleplaying? Can you please give a bullet point list how it does that?
Such information, when presented to players, undermines their confidence in their characters capabilities, making them rethink their choices that were based on enjoyment, feel, and perception, rather than calculated statistics. They stop evaluating new abilities, feats, etc by the numbers, rather than simple appeal.

Also: CRPGs and MMOs are perfectly playable without crunching any numbers what so ever. The computer does that for you. TT RPGs are more math intensive. Also, the internet? What does that have to do with how good you roleplay an elf?
I'll start with the internet first. Before widespread use of the internet, I never knew of anyone who would create detailed statistical analysis' of all the stats in the monster manual. No one in my experience has done so. People just played the game for what it was and accepted what it wasn't. With the ease of communication over the internet, we've gone from simply playing the game to dissecting the game. Any game really. Just look at all the sites devoted to analyzing every single statistic and formula for crpg's and mmo's. Especially mmo's.

That statistic driven competitive mindset has infected gamers everywhere. Yeah, it's all personal experience and anecdotal evidence, but when D&D games turn into discussions of numbers and stats... I get disgusted. D&D is about roleplaying, not number crunching. People have lost sight of what the game should be.

Instead of creating games where the numbers are less important, computer games have turned the focus towards the numbers, in an ever increasing drive to be the best. I alway read things where people say they want a challenge, but then they go through and try to find the easiest way to beat something.

Seriously, this may be a strong emotional issue for you, but try to make some logical arguments of those emotions.
Playing games is about emotions. Numbers are inherently without emotion. Same with statistics. The only reason to worry about numbers, is for personal and selfish enjoyment through being "better" at the game. There's no thought given to how your character might affect the group as a whole. I've seen one group dissolve because players stopped showing up. Their reason was that the game just wasn't fun anymore with a certain player in the group and the dm was too timid to kick them out. That player was a min/maxxing power gamer to the core. That's one group too many, imo.

WayneLigon said:
Only if you want to remain ignorant about the hows and whys of encounter building, or about possible pitfalls in the game system. Arming yourself with a working knowledge of the math behind the game has all kinds of advantages that have nothing to do with suppossed power gaming.

The more you learn about the inner workings of your game, the better prepared you are when someone tries to pull some rules-lawyering BS or thinks he's come up with the next 'bag-o-rats' exploits - people who don't learn this lesson tend to get bulldozed the first time they have to deal with someone even moderately exploitive.
I only need one thing to deal with any exploits: common sense. The math is irrelevant.
 


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