Firearms

BASHMAN · Jun 7, 2008

Smokepowder weapons are far more powerful than standard weapons, and simpler to use, changing warfare as we know it(on worlds where smokepowder is common, heavy armor has gone the way of the dodo).

When you attack with a Smokepowder weapon, you roll to attack the enemy's REFLEX instead of AC.

It requires a Feat to know how to use smokepowder weapons.

Pistol-- +4 prof. range 5/10, 1d10 dmg; high crit
Blunderbuss-- +4 prof, Close Blast 4, 1d10 dmg
Musket-- +4 prof. range 10/20, 2d10 dmg; high crit.

syndalis · Jun 7, 2008

epochrpg said:
Smokepowder weapons are far more powerful than standard weapons, and simpler to use, changing warfare as we know it(on worlds where smokepowder is common, heavy armor has gone the way of the dodo).

When you attack with a Smokepowder weapon, you roll to attack the enemy's REFLEX instead of AC.

It requires a Feat to know how to use smokepowder weapons.

Pistol-- +4 prof. range 5/10, 1d10 dmg; high crit
Blunderbuss-- +4 prof, Close Blast 4, 1d10 dmg
Musket-- +4 prof. range 10/20, 2d10 dmg; high crit.

good lord, proficiency bonus to hit on a weapon that attacks the reflex and not the AC?

Might be realistic, but it breaks the balance of the game in a BIG way. If you are doing a plot where the arrival of the gun causes sweeping changes to the land, I guess... but it is just too overpowered to be casually introduced.

WhatGravitas · Jun 7, 2008

syndalis said:
Might be realistic, but it breaks the balance of the game in a BIG way. If you are doing a plot where the arrival of the gun causes sweeping changes to the land, I guess... but it is just too overpowered to be casually introduced.

No, no, no. It breaks the balance hard. On average, AC is about 3 points higher than Reflex, so these guys have effectively +3 already.

And now add the proficiency bonus of +4, the highest proficiency bonus of a ranged weapon is +3.

So you come out with a net +4 bonus compared to other ranged weapons. And higher damage. Now look how much you would have to pay to get magic weapons of that calibre.

These firearms easily put you 10 levels ahead, powerwise.

Cheers, LT.

Revinor · Jun 7, 2008

I don't see a reason why basic firearms should deal more damage than longbow or crossbow.

+4 prof bonus is probably way too high. One of the benefits of firearms compares to bows was that they could be used a lot more effective by non-experts. You are putting 4 points difference between trained and non-trained, which suggest quite the opposite.

Attacking reflex is probably nice fluff-wise.

My suggestion would be to make them +1 versus Ref weapons, with damage 1d10 for both pistol and musket (musket has a benefit of higher range), and something like 1d6 for blunderbuss (and reduce it to close blast 2), all of them non-high crit. Maybe make it 2d6 for adjacent and 1d6 at range 2. Reload requires 1 standard action (so you can shoot every other round).

Without the proficiency feat, you don't get +1 prof bonus and you take extra action to reload.

Heroic level feat could make pistol and musket high crit weapons.
Paragon level feat could allow reloading them with move action instead of standard action.

This way, they will be quite powerful, allowing you to chose reflex over AC for attack, at the same time not going completely out of the roof in damage/to hit bonus aspects.

Dayspire · Jun 7, 2008

I'd like to see some other opinions here, too. I'm including firearms in my Steampunk world, and I'm waffling over the stats (it can be a big deal, obviously).

I think I'm going with +2 Prof bonus, Simple Weapons, 1d8 for pistols, 1d10 for rifles. Requires a minor action to load, move action if you don't have military ranged proficiency. It should be said that my firearms are not like flintlocks/muskets - they're very much a creation of steamtech and magic.

I guess my question here is this. Do they look unbalanced? I think the OP's gun stats were... err... slightly more powerful than I wanted. But what is everyone else's opinion?

EDIT: My firearms attack AC, not Reflex.

Saben · Jun 7, 2008

The OPs stats are powerful, but what if you can only fire if you don't move. In my opinion that would make them more balanced (and toning the damage down). I don't like the idea of attacking reflex, but I think a high proficiency score shows how the guns are able to bypass armour more effectively than a bow.

Given you need to take a Gunpowder Feat in addition to a Proficiency Feat, they are powerful, but feat intensive restrictive to use which hopefully offsets the power.

How about:

Code:

Weapon     Prof     Damage     Range     Properties
Pistol      +4       1d10       5/10      High Crit, Load Move
Blunderbuss +4       1d6    Close Blast 4 Load Move
Musket      +4       1d12      10/20      High Crit, Load Standard

This seems more balanced, yet more realistic.

Mal Malenkirk · Jun 7, 2008

Dude, if these are early firearm, then drop the proficiency bonus.

Before the advent of rifling, you could literrally miss the wide side of a barn with those. The bullet would spin in weird ways and curve all over the place.

I'd give it no proficiency whatsoever which would balance out with the fact it uses reflex defense.

But that being said, armor did stop early bullet reasonably well. Armor was already on the decline for other reasons when early firearms made their appearance on the battlefield.

Blair Goatsblood · Jun 7, 2008

If your campaign world has widespread firearms, just use crossbow stats and change them to pistol and musket.

BASHMAN · Jun 9, 2008

Oh-- I forgot the main balancing component-- 1 minute to reload! In otherwords-- one shot per gun per encounter!

nothing to see here · Jun 9, 2008

Firearms -- different approaches

I want to introduce firearms too. Count me in the group that want firearms to be mechanically distinct, and not just "crossbows" by another name.

Let's look at the discussed bonuses to firearms in this thread:

High Damage
Higher Crit
High Proficiency Bonus
Attacks Reflext.

And the negatives discussed:

Can't be used with a move
One shot per encounter.

Still a little unbalanced.

There was nothing particularly accureate about early firemarms, whose main bonus was simplicity at use. I would drop the proficiency bonus to +1 at most/ At the same time I would make the firearm a simple weapon.

The attack REF instead of AC and higher crit would be the benefits one gained from taking the "smokepowder" feat, essentially allowinga gun user to make one powerful ranged attack per encounter.

That would seem more balanced to me.