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Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 07:34 AM #1
Novice (Lvl 1)
Oddities with the Experience Table
The experience chart (PH, p. 29) seems a little... odd. It took me some playing around with the numbers to figure out what was bothering my inner mathematician.
After 2nd level, the amount of experience you need to gain a level goes up by 250 points (i.e., you need +1,000 to reach level 2, +1,250 to reach level 3, etc.). After four levels of this, the 'additional' amount increases to 500. About the point you'd expect this to continue, it gets extremely erratic on levels 11 (+1,500) and 12 (+500), then reverts back to +1,000 at 13th and 14th. Levels 15-18 add +2,000 each, and 19-20 start at +4,000 -- this implies the amount added doubles every four levels.
Except that level 21 adds +8,000, and 22 adds +3,000. After that little bit of weirdness, it does +10,000 for four levels, and +25,000 for the last four.
Clearly, there was a pattern here, but it looks like they mangled it a bit halfway to make the numbers look pretty and end up with an even million at 30th level. Those changes result in some really weird differences, and though overall there is a gradual increase in XP costs (including a rather sharp rise at level 23), if you made a chart of the XP table it would have a noticeable dip at level 22.
Just to see how it would play out, I took the implied progression and smoothed it out. I also took the idea that the increase would actually double every 4 levels, instead of having the last eight levels jump up by an arbitrary amount. (Both of these have the end-result of lowering the XP needed to reach level 30; the former by about 30K, the latter by about 175K.)
Granted, this last step was largely unnecessary, since there won't be any advancement past 30th level, but I included it as a thought experiment. I'd considered reworking it to use the last three parts (4K-10K-25K), and have the increase go up by 2.5× each time, but the results were unreadable.
The first 10 levels are identical (they don't start doing weird things with it until 11th). From 11th to 20th level, the variant methods only vary from the RAW by 500 XP. At 21st level, though, the difference jumps up to 4,500 XP, and increases by another 3,000 each level. (With the doubling method, the difference goes up even more at 23rd level and beyond.)
Here's a rough chart of the results; the first column is from the RAW, the second removes the 'jagged' parts, and the third assumes a simple doubling every time. The numbers on the latter two look funny, but the progression itself is easier to predict.
RAW Smooth Doubler 1 0 0 0 2 1,000 1,000 1,000 3 2,250 2,250 2,250 4 3,750 3,750 3,750 5 5,500 5,500 5,500 6 7,500 7,500 7,500 7 10,000 10,000 10,000 8 13,000 13,000 13,000 9 16,500 16,500 16,500 10 20,500 20,500 20,500 11 26,000 25,500 25,500 <- 500 XP difference 12 32,000 31,500 31,500 13 39,000 38,500 38,500 14 47,000 46,500 46,500 15 57,000 56,500 56,500 16 69,000 68,500 68,500 17 83,000 82,500 82,500 18 99,000 98,500 98,500 19 119,000 118,500 118,500 20 143,000 142,500 142,500 21 175,000 170,500 170,500 <- 4,500 XP difference 22 210,000 202,500 202,500 <- 7,500 XP difference 23 255,000 244,500 242,500 <- 10,500/12,500 24 310,000 296,500 290,500 <- 13,500/19,500 25 375,000 358,500 346,500 <- 16,500/28,500 26 450,000 430,500 410,500 <- 19,500/39,500 27 550,000 527,500 490,500 <- 22,500/59,500 28 675,000 649,500 586,500 <- 25,500/88,500 29 825,000 796,500 698,500 <- 28,500/126,500 30 1,000,000 968,500 826,500 <- 31,500/176,500
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Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 07:40 AM #2
It makes a lot more sense if you look at monster XP by level. Starting at second level, the amount of XP you get from a standard monster goes up by 25, for 4 levels until you reach 5th for 200XP. Then the increase is by 50 for each level for 4 levels until you reach 9th. Then the increase is by 100 for 4 levels until you reach 13, etc. etc.
Last edited by ForbidenMaster; Sunday, 8th June, 2008 at 07:45 AM.
Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 07:42 AM #3
Acolyte (Lvl 2)
Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 07:42 AM #4
Scout (Lvl 6)
11th level is heroic --> paragon
21st level is paragon --> epic
Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 07:44 AM #5
Novice (Lvl 1)
I haven't yet looked at the Monster Manual. If I'm reading my notes correctly, it would seem to imply that 22nd-level monsters are worth less XP than 21st-level ones. (Or, at least, that the increase is less between 21-22 than it is from 20-21.)
Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 07:48 AM #6
The diffirence between 20th and 21st is 400 and the diffirence between 21st and 22nd is 950, so I dont understand what you are talking about.Originally Posted by LonePaladin
Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 07:48 AM #7
Novice (Lvl 1)
wait, wasn't one of the strength of 3e getting rid of all the "illogical" rules in the previous edition? so why is now cool to reintroduce designers' arbiter?!?Originally Posted by Oompa
(unless otherwise specified, the above post does not reflect my personal opinion, but a universal law of the universe. if you happen to disagree, you are welcomed to move to the next dimension. faithfully, spell)
Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 07:54 AM #8
But the math isnt random. The problem is that the OP is looking at it from the wrong end. Leveling up is not a strict function of accumulation of X amount of XP, even though mathematically thats what it comes down to. Leveling up is the end result of having 10 encounters of your level. In other words its the result of you gaining an amount of XP worth 1 monster of your level * 10. Obviously they didnt make up the amount of XP you need to level up before they made up the amount of XP a monster gives you if you defeat it. If you look at the monster progression chart you will see that there is a a basis to the madness and its not all random.Originally Posted by Spell
Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 07:56 AM #9
Novice (Lvl 1)
I guess I need to look at the charts for granting XP and see if they have any oddities. Give me a couple days -- I'm in the middle of a project right now, and don't know when I'll get a chance to look at the other two books (I've been mainly focusing on the PH).Originally Posted by ForbidenMaster
I'll let you know how that analysis works as soon as I can.
Sunday, 8th June, 2008, 08:00 AM #10
Defender (Lvl 8)
The monster XP increases double every 4 levels, and then get wacky in the epic tier, so it wouldn't surprise me that player XP needed to level starts shooting up at that point as well.