D&D 3E/3.5 Multi-class like 3.5
Sadrik
First Post
Goal- multiclass like in 3.5. take one level of this 1 level of that etc.
The biggest balancing act would be class features. Talk about top loaded classes...
Other considerations would be power acquisition, and skills.
I want to make a Ranger/Rogue/Wizard 3/3/3, what would it look like?
It would also be nice to have this be "in addition to" the standard feat multiclassing system.
I am looking for solutions... Anybody got any ideas or concepts on this?
The biggest balancing act would be class features. Talk about top loaded classes...
Other considerations would be power acquisition, and skills.
I want to make a Ranger/Rogue/Wizard 3/3/3, what would it look like?
It would also be nice to have this be "in addition to" the standard feat multiclassing system.
I am looking for solutions... Anybody got any ideas or concepts on this?
keterys
First Post
I don't think it would work very well. In addition to getting a large quantity of features at 1st level, they also get a large quantity of powers (at-will, encounter, daily). And it's not like you can just swap features cleanly (though you potentially could for powers), either... for example, a Ranger/Rogue is pretty strictly imbalanced if you can stack sneak attack and hunter's quarry.
I think you'd be better off designing a new class that fits the concept - even if all it does is pull a lot of abilities from those 3 classes.
I think you'd be better off designing a new class that fits the concept - even if all it does is pull a lot of abilities from those 3 classes.
Last edited:
Sadrik
First Post
Hey, thats not what I wanted to hear. It can be done. It is just a matter of finding the right blend of features, powers and skills.
I am hoping that someone else had some ideas on this too.
All I have so far is that to get into another class you have to have training in a requisite skill either from your prior class or from a feat.
Something like:
Fighter None
Ranger Nature
Rogue Thievery and stealth
Wizard Arcana
Cleric Religion
Warlock ???
Paladin ???
Warlord Heal
Features you gain just the main one:
Fighter Mark
Ranger Quarry
Rogue Sneak Attack
Wizard Spellbook and Cantrips
Cleric Healing word
Warlock Pact
Paladin Mark
Warlord Healing ability
Weapon proficiency
???
Defense Bonuses
???
Power selection
???
Stunting your growth by being 3/3/3 means you can only select up to 3 level powers for 3 classes that is a pretty hefty disadvantage. How could be mitigated?
I am hoping that someone else had some ideas on this too.
All I have so far is that to get into another class you have to have training in a requisite skill either from your prior class or from a feat.
Something like:
Fighter None
Ranger Nature
Rogue Thievery and stealth
Wizard Arcana
Cleric Religion
Warlock ???
Paladin ???
Warlord Heal
Features you gain just the main one:
Fighter Mark
Ranger Quarry
Rogue Sneak Attack
Wizard Spellbook and Cantrips
Cleric Healing word
Warlock Pact
Paladin Mark
Warlord Healing ability
Weapon proficiency
???
Defense Bonuses
???
Power selection
???
Stunting your growth by being 3/3/3 means you can only select up to 3 level powers for 3 classes that is a pretty hefty disadvantage. How could be mitigated?
keterys
First Post
So, the difference between a rogue 3 and a rogue 9:
level 5 daily, level 9 daily
level 7 encounter
level 6 utility
Compare that to what you might gain from the other class. Especially in the case of the damage features (sneak attack, quarry) it'll be worth doing for many, many classes, just dip 1 level and move on.
Even if the example character traded those 4 powers for, say, 2 at-wills, 2 encounter 1s, and 2 daily 1s... and no features at all... he'd probably still be doing fairly well for himself.
I'm not trying to dissuade you from seeking a solution, but I think it'd be easier to, say, make a Spellthief class.
Anyhow, trying to consider it more seriously, let's say that you were able to swap out power slots and features for the new class's, and they were set in tiers so you knew what you needed to trade.
So, for example, if you know that Sneak Attack and Quarry are the same tier and you could swap one for the other, that's all well and good. Maybe you can get Cantrips by sacrificing a utility power or whatever.
Let feats invested get you the very minor class features, like the ability to dual wield non-off hand weapons... should have some way to get a bonus at-will from each class.
So you might look like (after a few feats spent), 3 rogue / 3 ranger / 3 wizard
3 Daily (usually 1/5/9, but restricted to all level 1 cause of max class 3, divvied as desired)
3 Encounter (usually 1/3/7, but restricted to 1 or 3, so probably 1 1, 2 3s)
2 Utility (usually 2/6, but restricted to 2 2s)
4 At-Will (at least 1 from each, so like thunderwave, twin strike, deft strike, piercing strike)
Ranger Two-Weapon Fighting
Quarry
Rogue Weapon Tactics
Cantrips
Or somesuch.
level 5 daily, level 9 daily
level 7 encounter
level 6 utility
Compare that to what you might gain from the other class. Especially in the case of the damage features (sneak attack, quarry) it'll be worth doing for many, many classes, just dip 1 level and move on.
Even if the example character traded those 4 powers for, say, 2 at-wills, 2 encounter 1s, and 2 daily 1s... and no features at all... he'd probably still be doing fairly well for himself.
I'm not trying to dissuade you from seeking a solution, but I think it'd be easier to, say, make a Spellthief class.
Anyhow, trying to consider it more seriously, let's say that you were able to swap out power slots and features for the new class's, and they were set in tiers so you knew what you needed to trade.
So, for example, if you know that Sneak Attack and Quarry are the same tier and you could swap one for the other, that's all well and good. Maybe you can get Cantrips by sacrificing a utility power or whatever.
Let feats invested get you the very minor class features, like the ability to dual wield non-off hand weapons... should have some way to get a bonus at-will from each class.
So you might look like (after a few feats spent), 3 rogue / 3 ranger / 3 wizard
3 Daily (usually 1/5/9, but restricted to all level 1 cause of max class 3, divvied as desired)
3 Encounter (usually 1/3/7, but restricted to 1 or 3, so probably 1 1, 2 3s)
2 Utility (usually 2/6, but restricted to 2 2s)
4 At-Will (at least 1 from each, so like thunderwave, twin strike, deft strike, piercing strike)
Ranger Two-Weapon Fighting
Quarry
Rogue Weapon Tactics
Cantrips
Or somesuch.
How about this:
Take the multiclass feat of your second class of choice. One added benefit of this is that you may now level as that class, if you'd like. You gain none of the starting features of the class (aside from whats given by the feat), but you do gain access to powers and feats as if you were of that class and level.
So, take the feat, and take your next level in that class; you're now effectively a Lv 1 member of that class, and have access to its powers as if you were a Lv 1 of that class. You gain no extra power slots, but the pool of available powers does expand.
Take the multiclass feat of your second class of choice. One added benefit of this is that you may now level as that class, if you'd like. You gain none of the starting features of the class (aside from whats given by the feat), but you do gain access to powers and feats as if you were of that class and level.
So, take the feat, and take your next level in that class; you're now effectively a Lv 1 member of that class, and have access to its powers as if you were a Lv 1 of that class. You gain no extra power slots, but the pool of available powers does expand.
nothing to see here
First Post
Sadrik said:
It may well be possible.
Let's be clear about the challenge though. I'm sure Wizards invested a significant chunk time and resources from professional developers trying to build such a 3.x style mulitclass system (which Mearls himself admitted was more elegant than the 4e standard system), only to come away empty handed each time.
Each potentially 'simple' fix will have ripple effects that could create either a) unplayable combos, or b) broken one. I would only consider a muliticlass ruleset viable if every potential combo is playable and there are not broken 'dip' classes. That's a tall order.
I salute you for your ambition though.
TarionzCousin
Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
Wait. Is this a liability or an asset?nothing to see here said:
BASHMAN
Basic Action Games
Why not do it like 2nd ed AD&D or 3.5 Gestalt-- you advance in two classes at once.
In this case, you cherry pick the 2 at will/ 1 encounter / 1 Daily at 1st from the two/three classes. As you level, when you get a power, you pick from one of your classes. The downside is you advance slower-- getting 3/4 or 2/3 XP respectively for 2 or 3 classes (the reason it is not half or a third is that unlike AD&D where XP was on a doubling scale, 4th it is on a cumulative scale. Getting half xp in AD&D didn't make you half the level of your friends-- it made you 1 level lower).
At first level you also cherry pick 3 class features from the combination of your classes (so you have to sacrifice several).
You have the best weapon proficiency of all the classes, but the worst armor proficiency. You can use any impliments allowed by either class.
You choose one skill list to pick from, but add to it (and have to take) the other classes "free" trained skill (if any).
Hit points: begin with the worse class' max hp-- every even level you gain the better classes hp/level, every odd level you gain the worse one.
Example: Strongarm
Eladrin Ranger/ Wizard 1
Class Features: Ritual Caster, Paired Weapon Style, hunters quarry
At Will: Twin Strike, Magic Missile
Encounter: Dire Wolvering Strike
Daily: Acid Arrow & Sleep
In this case, you cherry pick the 2 at will/ 1 encounter / 1 Daily at 1st from the two/three classes. As you level, when you get a power, you pick from one of your classes. The downside is you advance slower-- getting 3/4 or 2/3 XP respectively for 2 or 3 classes (the reason it is not half or a third is that unlike AD&D where XP was on a doubling scale, 4th it is on a cumulative scale. Getting half xp in AD&D didn't make you half the level of your friends-- it made you 1 level lower).
At first level you also cherry pick 3 class features from the combination of your classes (so you have to sacrifice several).
You have the best weapon proficiency of all the classes, but the worst armor proficiency. You can use any impliments allowed by either class.
You choose one skill list to pick from, but add to it (and have to take) the other classes "free" trained skill (if any).
Hit points: begin with the worse class' max hp-- every even level you gain the better classes hp/level, every odd level you gain the worse one.
Example: Strongarm
Eladrin Ranger/ Wizard 1
Class Features: Ritual Caster, Paired Weapon Style, hunters quarry
At Will: Twin Strike, Magic Missile
Encounter: Dire Wolvering Strike
Daily: Acid Arrow & Sleep
