Sneak Attack + Critical Hit?

Zurai · Jun 24, 2008

The PHB is perfectly clear on it. The only damage not maximized is damage that is caused by critical hits. Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, and Warlock's Curse are not caused by critical hits. Thus, they are maximized.

Gort · Jun 24, 2008

I'm pretty sure that the only real reason people are thinking sneak attack dice aren't maximised is because that's the way it was in 3e.

ozziewolf · Jun 24, 2008

Remember the handbook is written on an exception basis. It will exclude what isn't maximized on a crit and anything not mentioned is maximized. Example high crit and magic weapon damage are not maximized it specifically says they are not. Everything else not mentioned is maximized.

There is some really poor logic being thrown around in this thread.

It doesn't actually matter but since it was mentioned by some one else. You choose to apply the sneak attack damage to be applied after the attack roll not the damage roll.

The doubling your sneak attack damage or doubling your crit is very simple. If you don't crit you double your sneak attack damage. If you do crit you double the entire max damage. You don't double your sneak attack damage and then double it again with the critical hit.

The rules are very clear on these points.

DClown · Jun 24, 2008

ozziewolf said:
The doubling your sneak attack damage or doubling your crit is very simple. If you don't crit you double your sneak attack damage. If you do crit you double the entire max damage. You don't double your sneak attack damage and then double it again with the critical hit.

The power I believe you are refering to ( Assassin's Point ) says double any EXTRA damage from sneak attack or a critical. That would be extra critical dice you roll from a weapon being high crit or having a magical ability that applies extra rolled damage on a critical, this power would not double the entire attack.

ozziewolf · Jun 24, 2008

DClown said:
The power I believe you are refering to ( Assassin's Point ) says double any EXTRA damage from sneak attack or a critical. That would be extra critical dice you roll from a weapon being high crit or having a magical ability that applies extra rolled damage on a critical, this power would not double the entire attack.

You're right the key word being "extra" damage. I hadn't read it closely enough when it was posted and hadn't double checked the manual. (My mistake.)

So to clarify on a non sneak attack you would double your sneak attack damage and on a critical hit you would maximize your normal dice.. sneak attack, damage dice, etc.. and then you would double the bonus dice you get from a magical weapon that is activated on a critical hit. (The double damage would not be maximized as usual of course.)

kclark · Jun 24, 2008

The way I read Assassin's Point is that you schoose to either double the damage coming from sneak or from the crit. I don't see any reason why you can't choose which to double after the roll is made.

Attacks with a +3 dagger that normally deals 1d4 +4 dex + 3 enh +2d6 sneak
On the normal hit you will of course choose to double what you roll on those extra 2 dice of sneak damage.

On a crit you are dealing 11+12 sneak damage +3d6 crit bonus. You can choose to double the extra damage from the sneak ability (12) or the crit dice (3d6). At this point it depends on what your crit dice roll is like as to which you are going to double.
However when you are epic level with a +6 vorpal dagger, you are most likely going to be doubling the extra crit damage as it is going to be 6d12+any of these rerolled, rather than the 30 sneak damage.

ozziewolf · Jun 24, 2008

kclark said:
The way I read Assassin's Point is that you schoose to either double the damage coming from sneak or from the crit. I don't see any reason why you can't choose which to double after the roll is made.

Attacks with a +3 dagger that normally deals 1d4 +4 dex + 3 enh +2d6 sneak
On the normal hit you will of course choose to double what you roll on those extra 2 dice of sneak damage.

On a crit you are dealing 11+12 sneak damage +3d6 crit bonus. You can choose to double the extra damage from the sneak ability (12) or the crit dice (3d6). At this point it depends on what your crit dice roll is like as to which you are going to double.
However when you are epic level with a +6 vorpal dagger, you are most likely going to be doubling the extra crit damage as it is going to be 6d12+any of these rerolled, rather than the 30 sneak damage.

With this being a level 29 daily ability, magic weapons will probably always outshine weapon damage so it's really not even an issue for which one they'll choose. Just that it's an either or situation but not both.

Xfer83 · Jun 24, 2008

ozziewolf said:
It doesn't actually matter but since it was mentioned by some one else. You choose to apply the sneak attack damage to be applied after the attack roll not the damage roll.

This is incorrect. Page 117 for the relevant text.

Sneak Attack
"You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll."

I'm not sure that that matters... I was formerly strongly in the camp of sneak attack not maximized, based on the apparent "damage dealing step" implied by the sneak attack text.

However the Valenae example on page 276 currently has me stumped.
It seems to suggest that if she used her thundering longsword encounter power on a critical hit the result would be maximized. The text states she would deal 10 extra damage and the damage is supposed to be 1d8... so something is wrong there... but it does suggest that variable damage amounts that aren't directly resulting from crits should be maximized.

I hope this turns up in the FAQ soon.

ozziewolf · Jun 24, 2008

Xfer83 said:
This is incorrect. Page 117 for the relevant text.

Sneak Attack
"You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll."

I'm not sure that that matters... I was formerly strongly in the camp of sneak attack not maximized, based on the apparent "damage dealing step" implied by the sneak attack text.

However the Valenae example on page 276 currently has me stumped.
It seems to suggest that if she used her thundering longsword encounter power on a critical hit the result would be maximized. The text states she would deal 10 extra damage and the damage is supposed to be 1d8... so something is wrong there... but it does suggest that variable damage amounts that aren't directly resulting from crits should be maximized.

I hope this turns up in the FAQ soon.

I was remembering that as after the attack roll not the damage roll.

Regardless the book is still written on an exception basis it specifically excludes bonus damage from magical weapons but not sneak attacks. There for sneak attack damage is maximized.