Sneak Attack + Critical Hit?

Nebulous · Jun 25, 2008

The book needed a few examples. Or better, they need a DDI article with multiple examples.

James McMurray · Jun 25, 2008

They need a wizards.com example, not a DDI one. Otherwise it'll disappear for a lot of people once the pay-to-read goes into effect. Hiding things that simplify your system from new players unless they pay is a bad idea, especially if its something that will make it harder for them to understand your game if they don't know its there.

Nebulous · Jun 25, 2008

James McMurray said:
They need a wizards.com example, not a DDI one. Otherwise it'll disappear for a lot of people once the pay-to-read goes into effect. Hiding things that simplify your system from new players unless they pay is a bad idea, especially if its something that will make it harder for them to understand your game if they don't know its there.

I'm still unclear what will be free access and what will be restricted.

Tony Vargas · Jun 25, 2008

ozziewolf said:
I was remembering that as after the attack roll not the damage roll.

Regardless the book is still written on an exception basis it specifically excludes bonus damage from magical weapons but not sneak attacks. There for sneak attack damage is maximized.

The thing about exception basis is "what's the exception?" Neither Sneak Attacks nor Criticals are general cases. Most attacks are not criticals, and most attacks do not have Sneak Attack damage added onto them.

It certainly seems reasonable to conclude that Sneak Attack damage is something that's added on after damage determination, and that critical hits are part of damage determination. Thus, just rolling SA after a crit would make sense. Similarly, Hunter's Quary is phrased as damage that you aply once per round, it's never even called part of the attack, or even adding to the attack, which is wierd.

That said, SA doesn't do nearly the damage it did in 3e, and can only be used once per round. It's the rogue's claim to Strikerhood, and, but for SA, they'd mosly be doing d4 damage with thier daggers (compared to the 2d6 base weapons damage a maul-weilding fighter dishes out). Maxxing it on a crit wouldn't be gamebreaking the way it would have been when SA topped out at 10d in 3e and stacked with every attack you could make in a round (thus giving you /many/ opportunities to crit).

It's even less of a problem for the other two strikers, who's 1d6/tier extra damage is really just a minor boost. An average of 2.5 extra damage on a crit, up to 7.5 at epic is not going to make Warlocks and Rangers overpowered.

lukelightning · Jun 25, 2008

Slight digression, but one thing I looooove about 4e is no more "hooray, I threaten, oh, wait, no I don't confirm" or even more annoying: "hooray, I crit! Oh, what do you mean I can't crit him? He's undead? Argh!"

ozziewolf · Jun 27, 2008

Tony Vargas said:
The thing about exception basis is "what's the exception?" Neither Sneak Attacks nor Criticals are general cases. Most attacks are not criticals, and most attacks do not have Sneak Attack damage added onto them.

Exception based rules: Unless it specifically states otherwise it's included.

1.) Page 278 Critical Hit Damage.

This specifically excludes high crit weapons, and magical weapons, implements from being max damage. So you have to roll the damage die for them and add it in. It doesn't exclude Sneak Attack, Hunter's Mark, or the Warlock's curse. So since they took the time to exclude some types but not others it can be safely concluded that they're not excluded or they would be listed as well.

There are other good examples of this I just don't care enough to look them up.

As a Rogue for the most part I have combat advantage for my sneak attacks almost every single round. (This is with out even taking the whole hiding in combat contraversy into account.) There are very few rounds where I go with out obtaining combat advantage. Not to be contrary but yes 99% of my attacks have sneak attack added on to them. (My party and I work together to ensure I have it every round.)

edit: I forgot to add that I agree with the rest of your post.

WookieeOnFire · Jun 27, 2008

d12 said:
When you score a critical hit on a sneak attack do you get max damage on the sneak attack roll?

No.

~ don't even go for "rules as written" PS ~ PHB page 278 under topic "Critical Hits"

"...determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack."

The power or attack you used determines this damage. Sneak attack as well as Hunter's Quarry and Warlock's Curse are class features, not attacks. Note that all of these use the verbiage "extra damage" in their descriptions then go back to page 278.

"Extra Damage:...If this extra damage is a die roll, it's not automatically maxium damage; you add the result of the roll.

Again a feature or bonus that provides extra damage (like Sneak Attack) is rolled, not maximized.

Mort_Q · Jun 27, 2008

Never once the same; never twice very different.

Zurai · Jun 27, 2008

WookieeOnFire said:
Note that all of these use the verbiage "extra damage" in their descriptions then go back to page 278.

"Extra Damage:...If this extra damage is a die roll, it's not automatically maxium damage; you add the result of the roll.

Good job with the intentional misquote.

The ENTIRE quote is:

"Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it is not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll."

Emphasis mine. The quote is clearly only referring to extra damage caused by the critical hit.

erik_the_guy · Jun 27, 2008

Sneak attack dice, ranger's quarry, warlocks curse, elemental damage from the weapons enchantment, EVERYTHING is maximized by the critical hit.

The only dice that are not maximized are the bonus dice that magical and high-crit weapons add when you score a critical hit.