D&D 4E Heavy Concrete Data on 4e's Skill Challenge System (long, lots of tables)

fanboy2000 said:

You're right. I'm still used to 3.5 where it was possible to be simultaneously awesome at several skills.

I've re-read the tables, and it looks like Skilly McAwesome isn't as necessary as I thought. Especially with the new table, it looks like aid another is the crucial factor. (At least in these complexity 5 challenges, Stalker0 said that lower complexity challenges had lower PWR.) The PWRBA never dips below 79%. Even level 7 has a PWRBA of 82.3%.

So the system seems to greatly favor a 5 person party working together.

Click to expand...

This is if Aid Another is even allowed for Skill Challenges, which seems unlikely (since sample Skill Challenges give options that are similar to Aid Another but harder, which wouldn't need to exist if Aid Another was an option). But yeah, it becomes absurdly easy if you allow Aid Another and then the PCs all roll Aid to help the best PC.

Rystil Arden said:

This is if Aid Another is even allowed for Skill Challenges, which seems unlikely (since sample Skill Challenges give options that are similar to Aid Another but harder, which wouldn't need to exist if Aid Another was an option). But yeah, it becomes absurdly easy if you allow Aid Another and then the PCs all roll Aid to help the best PC.

Click to expand...

I can't look at the DMG right now, but would using the options similar to Aid Another still yield a success rate higher than say 50%?

Spatula said:

Huh? The table on page 42 is a generic DC table, for attacks, skills, ability checks. It's not just for skill DCs.

Click to expand...

THANK YOU.

My books only just arrived today, and I'm not allowed to read them at work. (My employer expects me to earn my pay, alas.)

OK - that clarifies a lot of points for me.

I still think a 7% success rate is too low, especially now that examples have been cited that seem to imply that aid another may not be allowed. I don't personally think that making +skill items the new Christmas tree ornaments is a good solution either. And level 7 looks rather daunting.

We can solve most of this by dogpiling aid another, BUT if aid another is in fact disallowed, then how can we make the skill challenges achievable without extraordinary dice rolling? Especially for starting first-level characters? Is there anything else we've missed?

fanboy2000 said:

I can't look at the DMG right now, but would using the options similar to Aid Another still yield a success rate higher than say 50%?

Click to expand...

There's a limit to getting one +2 from these options (since it applies to the next character's skill check, and therefore if you tried to do it twice in a row, the second person would use up the first person's +2). Assuming that it was an auto-success (which it isn't--it's an Easy Skill, but it could still fail), then it would be just like Stalker0's column for 1 Aid Another in chart 4. It certainly helps, but it won't help get things high enough (10-20% in most cases).

Interesting tables. I am not going to dispute that there is something wrong with the table.

But here are some considerations:
A typical combat encounter of the party's level is not supposed to be deadly. If they work well together, they will win without any losses, and even not expend to many daily resources.

What if a typical skill challenge of the party's level is also supposed to be a guaranteed win if every one works together? Would this mean that Aid Another is definitely expected (but why have the easy challenges then, Aid Another is always better - unless you can stack them?), and we should only expect failures on higher level challenges?

What if it was the opposite. Losing in combat means death. Losing a skill challenge means ... something different happens then if you won, and you don't get XP. But then, aid another shouldn't be possible.
For a reasonable success chance for a skill challenge, it should have a level below the party.

---

Neither approach looks entirely satisfying, especially since none of the two assumptions is adressed in the books.

Side Note:
I wonder how combat success rates would look if we check the options for the PCs? Do we also reach the "aid-another" auto-success rates? (but replacing aid-another with clever use of leader buffs and controller debuffs?)

Maybe if they had divided characters into roles again for skill challenges:

"Defenders" could reduce or somehow mitigate skill failures...make them not happen or delay them so that successes have a chance to "win" the race.

"Strikers" are going for the skill challenge successes more directly.

"Leaders" are doing aid another and such.

"Controllers" are opening the field up to new skills being used (I'm trying to find a metaphor for control terrain here).

This division of roles doesn't have to map onto the combat division of roles, but might give a more fun way of dealing with skill challenges.

Note: I have no DMG so am only going off of threads so far.

How to use the system as is:

Well at least, this is how I will use the Skill Challenge system, trying to use as much of the written rules as possible:

Preparation:
1. Pick which skills fit the situation (including possible special cases as per the rules). I will not look at character sheets at this stage - story decides the skills that fit, not the participants.

2. Decide on how difficult the challenge should be for the players, and which complexity it should be. Just like with a combat some challenges should be easy, some harder.

3. Time to set up DCs. First tip: Ignore the table on page 42 in the book. It is not your friend. Instead look at how difficult you want the challenge to be, and find the "need to roll" you want. I have attached my little ugly Excel sheet that I made for this purpose - but you can also just use the numbers I suggest here. (cleaned up version of what I attached in another thread.) Without testing I can't say for sure where the limits are for how hard or how easy you want this to be. My current estimate is that "need to roll" should land between 4 and 9, where 4 is mainly for easy complexity 1 challenges. The higher the "need to roll" is, the higher the difficulty - of course.

4. When you have decided on the "need to roll" number have a peek at your players' character sheets. Look at which is the lowest effective skill bonus that a player is likely to use to try to get a success. (If some players are way behind on points, ignore them.) Add "need to roll" to that number, and you have the DC for a normal skill check in the challenge. This DC will be used for all normal rolls for all characters. Note that this is basically the same thing as tweaking the DCs like many say that they will do during play - I just choose to do it beforehand.

5. Assign XP reward. If you use easy "need to rolls" adjust XP to a lower encounter level, if the "need to rolls" are high you go upwards. If you feel that this party gets higher or lower DCs than a normal party would in this situation, feel free to adjust up and down as needed.

When playing out the skill challenge I will not force players to contribute. If a player feels that it is out of character or just too stupid they don't have to take an active part. If aid another fits the skill challenge I will offer them the chance to do that instead, and add 1-2 points to the DCs to make up for it. (Depending on how many are likely to aid another instead of going for successes.)

Creativity should be awarded. Be generous with +2 awards for good ideas, and if someone comes up with a real good reason to use a skill not featured in the challenge the check doesn't really need to be hard. If the reason is just ok, then +5 on the DC is a lot better than just saying no.

This method will work on every character level. It will reward people who have made skills a priority, without making the challenges too easy for those groups. The problem with the page 42 chart in the DMG is that it is trying to do the impossible, which I think the OP has proven more than anyone can ask for.

Warning: Testing might show that "need to rolls" should be 1-2 points higher than I have set them at right now. It depends on how much impact specialist characters and "DM's best friend"-bonuses will have.

Tervin said:

4. When you have decided on the "need to roll" number have a peek at your players' character sheets. Look at which is the lowest effective skill bonus that a player is likely to use to try to get a success. Add "need to roll" to that number, and you have the DC for a normal skill check in the challenge.

Click to expand...

A couple of questions:

1) If you always set the DC after what skill the player already has, why would the player ever want to improve that skill? You spend something (a feat in 4E, precious skill points in 3E) to train the skill, but what do you gain in exchange for that?

2) How do you handle: "Why is his target number 14 and mine 19, when we are doing exactly the same thing?"

Tuft said:

A couple of questions:

1) If you always set the DC after what skill the player already has, why would the player ever want to improve that skill? You spend something (a feat in 4E, precious skill points in 3E) to train the skill, but what do you gain in exchange for that?

2) How do you handle: "Why is his target number 14 and mine 19, when we are doing exactly the same thing?"

Click to expand...

Ah, I was not clear enough. They don't get individual DCs. They all get the same normal DC that I calculated.

Also, if they all go for the skill boosting feats and items, I will se that they are above average at their skills, and adjust XP as they are doing above average challenges. If one or two people aren't even close to the skill bonuses that the others have, I will not count them in when setting the DC. It is not then reasonable that they will choose to try.

Lurker37 said:

I still think a 7% success rate is too low, especially now that examples have been cited that seem to imply that aid another may not be allowed.

Click to expand...

You can definitely use aid another. The DMG specifically mentions it, but seems to imply that using it is a feature of certain challenges (which it then doesn't provide examples of, so who knows - that section is very vague). The other bit is that many of the skill challenge templates have as their only Easy check an aid another-like mechanic - except that an Easy DC will always be at least 10 (or, at least 15 by the RAW), and it looks like if you fail that check you give a penalty rather than a bonus. So why would you use that if you could just aid another, which is always DC 10 and has no penalty for failure? *shrug* Hard to say anything definite, one way or the other.