D&D 4E Heavy Concrete Data on 4e's Skill Challenge System (long, lots of tables)

T

Terramotus

First Post
Prophet2b said:
Or they knew exactly what they were doing, the system works great as is, and all of this math only works on paper and not in game.

Logically speaking, that is a third option.
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Seriously, build any party of 5 level 1 characters you like, and run a Level 1 Complexity 5 challenge out of the book. According to the RAW, the complexity doesn't really matter other than for making the challenge "significant". Try to succeed. Try to get past the halfway point of success before failing. Run it 10 times. I'm betting you won't succeed even once without the aid of ridiculously high rolls.
 

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Eldorian

Eldorian

First Post
fanboy2000 said:
2. Skilly McAwsome is clearly a necessary party member if the party wants to win skill challenges about as often as they win combats. IIRC, the DMG compares skill challenges to combat and makes references to that effect. So, if the party is winning almost 100% of the time if they all work together then that makes perfect sense to me.
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Then everyone in the party needs to be Skilly McAwesome. For different skills. Not all skills key from the same two attributes, tho cha and int will get you a long way. My Tiefling warlock with wizard multiclassing will be pretty good for skill challenges, assuming the DM fixes the DCs.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Prophet2b said:
Or they knew exactly what they were doing, the system works great as is, and all of this math only works on paper and not in game.

Logically speaking, that is a third option.
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That is not logic speaking, no. Not remotely.
 

S

Stormtalon

First Post
I keep looking at the table on p42, looking at the footnote, and looking at the section right above it, and I keep coming to the same conclusion each time.

The footnote is relevant if and only if you're trying to set ad-hoc DCs for some wacky idea a character has come up with for a one-off trick. For skill challenges, I'd use the DCs straight, but if Leapin' Larry the Athletic Ranger wants to jump from the balcony, catch the chandelier and then do a triple backflip into the King's lap and give him a big ol' kiss on the lips.... THAT'S when the +5 comes into play.
 

Eldorian

Eldorian

First Post
Stormtalon said:
I keep looking at the table on p42, looking at the footnote, and looking at the section right above it, and I keep coming to the same conclusion each time.

The footnote is relevant if and only if you're trying to set ad-hoc DCs for some wacky idea a character has come up with for a one-off trick. For skill challenges, I'd use the DCs straight, but if Leapin' Larry the Athletic Ranger wants to jump from the balcony, catch the chandelier and then do a triple backflip into the King's lap and give him a big ol' kiss on the lips.... THAT'S when the +5 comes into play.
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Sigh. Explain the skill challenge in the web enhancement for Keep on the Shadowfell, then. Feeling like a broken record =P
 

fanboy2000

fanboy2000

Adventurer
Eldorian said:
Then everyone in the party needs to be Skilly McAwesome. For different skills.
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Good point. Knowing my players, they'll be unbeatable at skill challenges involving bluff and insight, but crap at everything else. Well, until they catch on. ;)

Actually, I don't know about other people's party's but my players will have one or two Skilly McAwsomes in bluff, insight, and diplomacy, with another in thievery (actually, that may be the same guy depending on the campaign), and a third in arcana.

I wonder how that works out overall. With skill challenges where we have a Skilly McAwsome, they win. But when he's taken away, they usually lose. Of course they don't lose as often in that scenario as often as the win in the other, so what would the overall win ratio be? How often is Skilly McAwsome a factor? I could be missing something, but it seems the more common he is, the more often the whole party wins, all other factors reflecting Stalker0's tables.
 

S

Spatula

Explorer
Dave Turner said:
I still find the implications of your last sentence fascinating. More competent characters will succeed less as the complexity goes down (if I'm reading that correctly?). Hardly intuitive!
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Lower-complexity challenges are more "swingy" because they have a lower tolerance for bad luck. Two (complexity 1) or three (complexity 2) bad rolls and it's over. Whereas if you need 6 bad rolls to fail the encounter, that's much less likely to happen when you have a good skill bonus.
 

Hussar

Hussar

Legend
I'm most certainly not going to challenge the math here. I know when I'm out of my depth.

Something the twigged in my brain though was the line about needing to use Aid Another or a Skill Monkey to succeed at Skill Challenges as often as combat. When you get right down to it, most groups succeed at combat pretty close to 100%. At least until they fail and all die :D.

So, maybe the idea that you use Aid Another and various other bonuses to jack your chances up to 100% doesn't signify a broken system. The system is designed to give you the opportunity to achieve 100%. Situational modifiers may reduce this opportunity, but, in general, you should be succeeding 100% of the time at a level appropriate challenge, be it combat or skill.
 

Skywalker

Skywalker

Adventurer
Terramotus said:
Seriously, build any party of 5 level 1 characters you like, and run a Level 1 Complexity 5 challenge out of the book. According to the RAW, the complexity doesn't really matter other than for making the challenge "significant". Try to succeed. Try to get past the halfway point of success before failing. Run it 10 times. I'm betting you won't succeed even once without the aid of ridiculously high rolls.
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Does that include an Easy Skill Challenge? Because if DCs set at 15, each PC has roughly a 65% of success in a trained skill, not even taking into account Aid. You really don't think the party will succeed once?
 


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