Monster creation

ki11erDM

Explorer
4e rocks. I love it. Except this one thing:

<rant>In 3.x you knew where the numbers came from in the monster stat-blocks and could reverse engineer them to create your own very easily. The best I can tell in 4e at least 50% of the numbers are just totally hand woven and that frustrates the hell out of me because I am trying to recreate some monsters that are unique to my campaign world and I want some real monster creation rules so I don’t botch it. I was afraid of this from the first time I heard about the new monsters and it seems totally justified now. And I am not happy about it at all.</rant>

I am trying to make a controller variant and figuring out the ‘Attack’ bonus just does not work or WoTC just totally ignored their own rules or I just suck. Here is an example:
The Mad Wraith (p 266) ability: Touch of Madness, +8 vs. Will; Does stuff.

According to the DMG rules (p 184) it should be +10 vs. Will and I can find absolutely no reason why it deviates from that (nor why one of its other ablities is +9 vs Will, shouldn't they at least be the same?). And it is not this one monster, almost all the controllers are like this. The ‘Attack’ vs will/fort/ref seem to have a random deviation +-5 or more points from what it should be.

And yes I know it says:
“Following these steps won’t result in a fully designed and developed monster, but they’ll provide a good approximation.”

But that is just not going to cut it for me. I guess what I really want is for a designer to say 'X is why we did Y'. If the Mad Wrait’s power is just bad arse and you want to make sure it does not hit to much then I want to know that.

Other than this one thing I am so happy with 4e that this is just killing me : (

Am I missing something? Any other solutions?
 

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thatdarnedbob

First Post
ki11erDM said:
Any other solutions?

Take a few deep breaths, acknowledge that the designers of the Monster Manual took a few liberties to better create the monster they wanted while still staying near the recommended math, and design your own monsters accordingly. If you want to follow the attack bonuses in the DMG exactly, then that's fine. They're just not an ironclad law anymore.
 

Agamon

Adventurer
Where would they tell you that they fudged a bit with some stats? It that monster's description? That would be pretty incongruous.

I have no problems with this. If you're making your own monsters, go ahead and go strictly by the DMG rules, or fudge a bit yourself if you like. But I'm not sure how the MM's monsters being a bit off from the "aproximation" rules in the DMG has anything to do with creating your own monsters...
 

Argyuile

First Post
I hope that a lot of that has to do with playtesting. You should really call them monster building guildlines. You use that as your baseline and then run it in combat to see what it can do, adjust accordingly.

If you need the rules to be hard and fast then just ignore the examples in the MM and use the monster building rules and they are written. I really fail to see the problem.
 

ki11erDM

Explorer
I don’t need them to be hard and fast I just need them to be relatively predictable. And from what I can tell these are just all over the place.

And I think a Dungeon article would be a perfect place to explain this kind of thing.

It is already hard enough to do everything else but I don’t have time to play test every monsters ability for a year. That is why 3.x was so great for making bad guys you just followed the rules (which was basically the same rules for making PCs) and you knew you would have something that would not be crazy over powered or under powered. They might not be perfect… but at least I knew where I went wrong. If I have to hand weave 12 things it is a MUCH harder time troubleshooting a monster.

So far it is only the Attack vs Will/Fort/Ref that are giving me an issue. Everything else has not be too bad. I guess I just don’t feel I can trust the baseline in the DMG if the designers couldn’t.
 


Xect

Explorer
ki11erDM said:
That is why 3.x was so great for making bad guys you just followed the rules (which was basically the same rules for making PCs) and you knew you would have something that would not be crazy over powered or under powered.

Aw man. We definitely haven't been playing the same game for the last 5 years...

I don't think the 8 or 10 to attack is what will break your monster. The powers it gets will do that instead. With a bit of practice, you'll learn to eyeball it I think.
 


I haven't had time to read the books yet (damned job!), but I'm actually looking forward to monster creation/conversion in 4e. I can remember spending hours the night before a game just advancing monsters with 3.x. 4e FTW!
 

Argyuile

First Post
Balanced monster and encounter creation was the biggest pain in the <Deleted for Security Reasons> in 3E.

4E has made DMing so far more fun than any edition I've ever played (which would be all of them).
 

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