4th Edition Bard
StephenHawking
First Post
Few feat ideas:
Heroic:
Song of the Heart: Pre-req: Bardic music class feature. +1 to inspire competence or courage bonuses.
Music of Renewal Pre-req: Healing Hymn. Your healing hymn can be used to give all allies in the burst regeneration 2 for every 1d6 of healing up to a max of targets equal to your charisma modifier. Example, a 6th lvl bard with 18 charisma can target 4 allies and give them regeneration of 4. This uses up a healing hymn for the encounter.
Curse song: Pre-req: Bardic music class feature. Bard song effects can be used negatively on enemies. You must have the appropriate bard music class of the same name to use these effects.
Cursed Countersong: Targets in burst up to your intelligence modifier gain 5 vulnerability to thunder and a -2 saving throw penalty for charm based saving throws. This changes countersong to a standard action.
Cursed Inspire courage: Targets in burst up to your intelligence modifier get -hit/dmg of appropriate level.
Cursed Inspire competence: As above, but skill checks.
Heroic:
Song of the Heart: Pre-req: Bardic music class feature. +1 to inspire competence or courage bonuses.
Music of Renewal Pre-req: Healing Hymn. Your healing hymn can be used to give all allies in the burst regeneration 2 for every 1d6 of healing up to a max of targets equal to your charisma modifier. Example, a 6th lvl bard with 18 charisma can target 4 allies and give them regeneration of 4. This uses up a healing hymn for the encounter.
Curse song: Pre-req: Bardic music class feature. Bard song effects can be used negatively on enemies. You must have the appropriate bard music class of the same name to use these effects.
Cursed Countersong: Targets in burst up to your intelligence modifier gain 5 vulnerability to thunder and a -2 saving throw penalty for charm based saving throws. This changes countersong to a standard action.
Cursed Inspire courage: Targets in burst up to your intelligence modifier get -hit/dmg of appropriate level.
Cursed Inspire competence: As above, but skill checks.
StephenHawking said:
Those are really good ideas. I might think of incorporating them into base class rather than just make it a feat.
Anyways for those who requested a pdf, here's the link to the new draft. http://www.badongo.com/file/9985993
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Flash_Plasma
First Post
So far this is the best homemade 4e class I've seen, and it's great for me because I always liked bards, and now they're actually GOOD. Why hasn't Wizards hired you yet?
Anyway, if i can convince my friends to play 4e, I'll definitely use this class, very professionally done.
Anyway, if i can convince my friends to play 4e, I'll definitely use this class, very professionally done.
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Flash_Plasma said:
Probably because I never really actually considered game design before. I'm glad you enjoy it. I'd appreciate any feedback or stories that arise from your use of the class.
Now that you mention that, none of my 3 dnd groups wish to play 4th edition. The main excuses they give me is:"none of my favorite classes are there!" "I don't want to wait a year to play a druid." "There isn't enough options for my character concept compared to all the material we have with 3.5."
Because of these concerns I actually got around to making some of the classes, feats, etc. Granted, the real reason I believe they are hesitant to try it out is because most of my groups are filled with power-gamers and feel a lack of power until the new splatbooks come out.
Until then, I might have a lot of spare time to write some more.
Looks really good, next time I start a 4e game I'll try to convince my DM to let me give it a spin.
One critique, though-if the PHB is any indication, the 'type' of the powers (Level blank type, as in exploit or prayer) is based on the power source. Therefore they should be spells, not that it has an affect mechanically as far as I know though.
One critique, though-if the PHB is any indication, the 'type' of the powers (Level blank type, as in exploit or prayer) is based on the power source. Therefore they should be spells, not that it has an affect mechanically as far as I know though.
This is, I dare say, the best attempt at bringing an old class to 4E that I have seen so far, really. Most stuff I'm seeing are people trying to make 4E versions of old editions' classes without trying to adapt to the new mentality of the game, but this one feels like 4E.
I didn't read through all the powers (or spellsongs as you called them) but overall I could tell you took the other leaders' powers as examples on how to balance. And at least the heroic tier ones (the ones I looked into) looks balanced and interesting enough.
Now a couple observations corrections and/or suggestions:
Trained Skills
-Any particular reason you took Streetwise over History? For me at least, history makes alot more sense since, well, when I hear about bards the first thing that comes to mind are the stories and tales they tell and such.
Implements
-This is probably implicit in there, but fluff-wise it would be cool to explain that, if for instance you don't use any implements you are actually singing a song or somesuch... Not that this is any important...
Bardic Knowledge
-Sorry to say this, but this one looks rather useless, lemme try to explain why. Most other classes (leaders or not), have stuff that gets a bonus either equal to one ability mod (ie. Combat Superiority, Healer's Lore, Implement Mastery, Commanding Presence (to some extent)) or they go even beyond that and instead give bonuses based on level (hunter's quarry/sneak attack/warlock's curse, kinda of an unfair comparisson though I have to admit).
Also, it's worth to mention some of the stuff that gives a flat/static bonus to a given stat (Weapont Talent, Combat Leader).
That being said, what good is a +2 to knowledge checks compared to all those other classes' features? I'd think that since it has almost (if not at all) no impact in combat, and as such it should either be a bonus that increases with tier +2/+4/+6, or even a bit more extreme, +1/ level (or +1/2 per level). All else fails, make the bonus stat dependent (Int probably).
Cantrips
-I like the idea of having cantrips, I just don't like the idea of getting them from the same list as Wizards, even though Prestidigitation and Ghost Sound fits perfectly for the Bard. When you "steal" something from other class it gives me the impression you're trying to be someone else. I think they should get their own set of cantrips.
Bardic Song
-I really like what you tried to do here, and also where you're coming from. But having only 2 Songs available "to the rest of your life" since level 1 doesn't seem right to me, there should be a ways to learn new songs.
Also, a couple notes on duration:
On fascinating song you used "until the end of your next turn (save ends)". This doesn't really exists on 4E, you should pick either but not both. (p. 278 PHB)
Some of the songs could use a "Sustain Move/Standard" clause (not sure which), it'd make them interesting, representing that you keep playing/singing maintaining the effect.
I like the way you tried to give some of them some kind of synergy with Healing Hymn (and btw, that's a nice name for the ability you got there), but as much as the idea looks good I'm not sure it delivers, maybe each of those should get an exclusive "conditional" clause like Inspire Courage would receive an extra +1 for one round, while another song would get something else different.
Anyway, enough for now.
Great job you did there.
I didn't read through all the powers (or spellsongs as you called them) but overall I could tell you took the other leaders' powers as examples on how to balance. And at least the heroic tier ones (the ones I looked into) looks balanced and interesting enough.
Now a couple observations corrections and/or suggestions:
Trained Skills
-Any particular reason you took Streetwise over History? For me at least, history makes alot more sense since, well, when I hear about bards the first thing that comes to mind are the stories and tales they tell and such.
Implements
-This is probably implicit in there, but fluff-wise it would be cool to explain that, if for instance you don't use any implements you are actually singing a song or somesuch... Not that this is any important...
Bardic Knowledge
-Sorry to say this, but this one looks rather useless, lemme try to explain why. Most other classes (leaders or not), have stuff that gets a bonus either equal to one ability mod (ie. Combat Superiority, Healer's Lore, Implement Mastery, Commanding Presence (to some extent)) or they go even beyond that and instead give bonuses based on level (hunter's quarry/sneak attack/warlock's curse, kinda of an unfair comparisson though I have to admit).
Also, it's worth to mention some of the stuff that gives a flat/static bonus to a given stat (Weapont Talent, Combat Leader).
That being said, what good is a +2 to knowledge checks compared to all those other classes' features? I'd think that since it has almost (if not at all) no impact in combat, and as such it should either be a bonus that increases with tier +2/+4/+6, or even a bit more extreme, +1/ level (or +1/2 per level). All else fails, make the bonus stat dependent (Int probably).
Cantrips
-I like the idea of having cantrips, I just don't like the idea of getting them from the same list as Wizards, even though Prestidigitation and Ghost Sound fits perfectly for the Bard. When you "steal" something from other class it gives me the impression you're trying to be someone else. I think they should get their own set of cantrips.
Bardic Song
-I really like what you tried to do here, and also where you're coming from. But having only 2 Songs available "to the rest of your life" since level 1 doesn't seem right to me, there should be a ways to learn new songs.
Also, a couple notes on duration:
On fascinating song you used "until the end of your next turn (save ends)". This doesn't really exists on 4E, you should pick either but not both. (p. 278 PHB)
Some of the songs could use a "Sustain Move/Standard" clause (not sure which), it'd make them interesting, representing that you keep playing/singing maintaining the effect.
I like the way you tried to give some of them some kind of synergy with Healing Hymn (and btw, that's a nice name for the ability you got there), but as much as the idea looks good I'm not sure it delivers, maybe each of those should get an exclusive "conditional" clause like Inspire Courage would receive an extra +1 for one round, while another song would get something else different.
Anyway, enough for now.
Great job you did there.
Zsig said:
A very valid point, I believe the origial concept was to tie the bard into the depths of the arcane more like a wizard studies his books, a bard finds songs and when he sings or plays them in the right way, magic happens. But considering I didn't give them a ritual book to start off with, It probably makes more sense to get history, since bards were treasure troves of stories. But i sort of represented that with bardic knowledge (see below). I will very strongly consider this.
I wouldn't suppose it wouldn't be too hard to describe that in the class description.Zsig said:
Zsig said:
Well for starters, knowledge is power and having a +2 to knowing any of your opponents powers/weaknesses is highly valuable in any combat situation. In addition, having higher bonuses for knowledges grant clues or even grant successes in skill challenges as explained in the dmg. Even though it isn't explicitly stated there, the things you can do or know with knowledge skills now is pretty staggering.
I will admit having a static +2 bonus probably won't do for the long run. But considering the ability to heighten skill checks via powers/abilities, I can see how it can seem to pale in comparison to the other classes.. Making it based on int, makes the use of arcana, history and religion redundant. Adding int twice for a skill seems weird. I'll think about it and see what I can come up with.
Zsig said:
Whenever someone played a bard in 3.0-3.5, those 4 cantrips were the ones most picked. If it almost seems perfect, it probably is a good idea. And if I recall how the bard was described in the 3.5 phb it stated along the lines of "the bard takes pointers from other classes." He's a little bit of everything. Has his healing, his magic, his melee abilities.
Zsig said:
There is some feats in the pdf I released earlier today that remedy that.
Font of music lets you pick up the other two you didn't pick up, and there were like 4 new songs I put in as feats as well. (still needs playtesting though)Zsig said:
This also had been remedied in the pdf I released earlier today.
Zsig said:
My original concept was to mirror the 3.5 version of maintaining a song as say a minor action, etc etc. The problem arose that if you could grant a decent bonus to attack/damage or whatever every encounter all the time as long as you sustain it, why would you not do this every single fight?
It seems way too good compared to say a cleric or paladin's channel divinity. Thus I put some conditions on when some of the music can be used. Almost all encounter powers in 4th edition do not last all the encounter, (I think the cleric has a mid-level shield power that does) nor did I see any so far that could be sustained.
As a result I made them into a single benefit until the end of the bard's next turn like most of the other encounter powers.
Anyways, I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions. I'll consider some of them and probably alter the class later. In the meantime, download the pdf!
The link should be at the top of the page. But if you don't feel like scrolling up, here it is: Bard Class PdfSimilar Threads
