4th Edition Bard

Zetesofos · Jun 30, 2008

First of all, an excellent conversion of a 3.5 class to 4th Edition.

My only quibbles (minor) some have mentioned are some powers are perhaps overpowered. When I say overpowered, mind you, I don't mean broken. But, I think they might be just a few numbers off, that have to seem a slight advantage. Given playtesting, this could be off, but for right now, just some I might edit. Mostly, I'm using the source books as a guide for damage ranges and conditions.

For example: Inciting strike gives an ally temp hit points equal to int modifier + 1/2 level. As an at-will, I would simply remove the 1/2 level aspect, which seems well to compare to the Paladin's Bolstering strike (using just wisdom modifier as the bonus) or sacred flame (which uses just the charisma bonus)

For Improvised Jab, I might recommend that the bonus to attack come from a secondary attribute. At-wills that grant bonus uses a secondary stat for this (Furious smash attacks with str, but grants cha. ) Or, Righteous brand limits it to a type of attack (melee attacks). I could see the Jab being an Int bonus to hit on ALL attacks.

As for other powers,
Critical Strike: Require combat advantage instead of flanking, and have the effect grant combat advantage as well. A nice help for the rogue in the party, which otherwise doesn't hurt the effect or fluff.

Phantom Blow: again, use combat advantage (looks similar to critical strike btw???)

Immediate assistance: (using the pdf) might just reword the text box to be dex+2 versus AC, and add the special take before the attack tag.

Improvisation: Nothing (Just thought the fluff text was awesomely funny

Glitterdust: Ranged to Area

and that's all for now (got a little bored). As it turns out, my critique came out more as a proofreeding excersise for consistancy. So yeah, overall, still a solid class. Just think of these as possible edits before WotC hires you ;P

leodav · Jul 1, 2008

I read it and I hope to show tis to a friend that wanted to play a bard in 4e but couldn't, this might be a good substitute

Although reading the powers I do have a few questions and suggestions

When you mean that the target has an effect like a second wind, he also gains the +2 to all defenses as well, if so then some effects will be much more powerful than if it was just the healing (for example refreshing song gives healing surge value + int modifier in healing and +2 to defense versus just healing surge value to a Cleric's Cure Light Wounds) I would suggest reading over some of these activating second wind effects and take in mind that a second wind does more than heal.

I would suggest the target under Puppeter's influence to have a bonus on his save to do something suicidal or against his nature, maybe +2 to +4

I would suggest Melf's slumbering arrows to deal 1d8+cha instead of 3d8 and somehow weaken the sleeping effect (give opponents bonuses to resist and dodge the arrow the more they are hit by it, prevents stunlocking big opponents by constantly hammering them with sleep arrows and prevents it from overshadowing at wills.)

Everything else seems fine, keep up the good work

saric · Jul 2, 2008

Zetesofos said:
My only quibbles (minor) some have mentioned are some powers are perhaps overpowered. Mostly, I'm using the source books as a guide for damage ranges and conditions.

For example: Inciting strike gives an ally temp hit points equal to int modifier + 1/2 level. As an at-will, I would simply remove the 1/2 level aspect, which seems well to compare to the Paladin's Bolstering strike (using just wisdom modifier as the bonus) or sacred flame (which uses just the charisma bonus)

#1 the bard isn't a paladin. #2 sacred flame gives charisma modifier + 1/2 level + its a ranged attack. I addressed this twice in this thread already.

For Improvised Jab, I might recommend that the bonus to attack come from a secondary attribute. At-wills that grant bonus uses a secondary stat for this (Furious smash attacks with str, but grants cha. ) Or, Righteous brand limits it to a type of attack (melee attacks). I could see the Jab being an Int bonus to hit on ALL attacks.

Righteous brand works on all melee attacks until the end of your next turn, this also includes opportunity attacks and any power that includes multiple attacks. Improvised jab is only on the "next attack".

As for other powers,
Critical Strike: Require combat advantage instead of flanking, and have the effect grant combat advantage as well. A nice help for the rogue in the party, which otherwise doesn't hurt the effect or fluff.

Noted on the combat advantage instead of just flanking, makes it more multi-purpose. Having it grant combat advantage for the allies is nice and all, but no.
Look at the cleric's divine glow, it also grants a +2 power bonus on attack rolls. However critical strike has a "requirement" and is a melee attack rather than used as a potential blast from safety.

Phantom Blow: again, use combat advantage (looks similar to critical strike btw???)

Noted. This power needs to change, apparently it got lost in the transition. In my original manuscript it was supposed to be a daily power that lasted all encounter (save ends). However I moved it to an encounter power and seem to have forgotten about it. I'll have to modify it.

Immediate assistance: (using the pdf) might just reword the text box to be dex+2 versus AC, and add the special take before the attack tag.

An interesting suggestion. I would suppose the text is a bit wonky.

Improvisation: Nothing (Just thought the fluff text was awesomely funny

I liked it too.

Glitterdust: Ranged to Area

Also Noted.

leodav said:
Although reading the powers I do have a few questions and suggestions

When you mean that the target has an effect like a second wind, he also gains the +2 to all defenses as well, if so then some effects will be much more powerful than if it was just the healing (for example refreshing song gives healing surge value + int modifier in healing and +2 to defense versus just healing surge value to a Cleric's Cure Light Wounds) I would suggest reading over some of these activating second wind effects and take in mind that a second wind does more than heal.

I am well aware that a second wind does more than heal. If you haven't noticed cure light wounds lets the person regain hit points as if they had a healing surge. Note that it does NOT consume a healing surge. Considering that the powers uses up surges rather than a "virtual" one. Having it grant +2 to all defenses seems pretty fair to me. I've been thinking about making them actually use up a person's second wind and not a "virtual" second wind.

I would suggest the target under Puppeter's influence to have a bonus on his save to do something suicidal or against his nature, maybe +2 to +4

That is something to consider.

I would suggest Melf's slumbering arrows to deal 1d8+cha instead of 3d8 and somehow weaken the sleeping effect (give opponents bonuses to resist and dodge the arrow the more they are hit by it, prevents stunlocking big opponents by constantly hammering them with sleep arrows and prevents it from overshadowing at wills.)

Its a daily power, its supposed to overshadow at-wills. The damage is debatable, and I have to see it more in playtesting to see how it pans out.

atillac · Jul 9, 2008

Thanks Saric!

This just makes my day. I enjoyed what I read.

Now, do you or anybody else know a good conversion for the Sha'ir?

I loved the 3.5e version of the sha'ir. i think it is one of the coolest class ideas. I cannot wait to see someone competent to convert this class into 4th E - I am noooowhere near that and will be a long time before i get to that level. In addition, it will probably be ages before wotc moves a finger on that. they have a looong to-do list (4th E versions of barbarian, their version of bard -though they might as well yank this one, gnomes, druids, etc., and ok, the monk, too...)

so, please, please please... sha'ir?

Arius · Jul 12, 2008

Well done Saric! From what I have seen your bard seems both well balanced and thought out and from what I can tell, seems like an excellent 4e representation of the Bard class. I plan to take an in depth look at it and do some play testing before putting it into my campaign, but I'll let you know what I find and how it works out.

I have to agree with an earlier post though (I don't recall who it was), forget Devis and get a picture of Gimble in there

My only other critique is with the multiclass feat, Seeker of the Song. Was there not another ability that the feat could grant? This is essentially the same ability granted by the Cleric and Warlord multiclass feats, and while it is consitant, it doesn't seen like an iconic bard ability.

winterwolf · Jul 12, 2008

First off, I think this class is amazingly well done. I think a lot of its powers should be along the lines of what the warlord does. Honestly, I played a warlord for 5 levels, and was bored solid playing it. It seemed to be the closest to what the 3.5 fighter was, in terms of all the stuff it could do. I found that my most effective attack was to give my ally a +3 to attack and damage, while I only did 3 damage. Seemed a bit... underpowered, I think.
Anyways, enough of my complaints about the warlord class (and I may have just been underplaying it... I've never been fond of melee classes, at least ones that don't have any flashy moves).
I was reading over the comments posted earlier, and there's one thing I want to comment about regarding bardic music as an encounter ability. Right now, it's slightly better than the cleric's abilies, since you can give a +1 to everyone (not just the +1 to yourself that clerics can use), plus heal with it... but you have to take into consideration that a cleric can give himself that bonus and STILL heal, which bards can't do unless they pick up the right feat.
Second, you have to realize that in 3.0, 3.5, a +1 bonus to hit did not amount to much when you throw in all the other bonuses people had, so it wasn't that game breaking to have it apply to everyone for an indefinite amount of time. In 4th edition, a +1 bonus to attack and damage IS fairly major. If, however, you feel that it lasting until the end of your next turn, perhaps give it a sustain minor with the caveat that it can only be sustained twice? There are certain wizard spells like that.
The thing to remember about 4th edition is that all of the classes are different mechanically, but not thematically. The bard itself cannot be the same as the 3rd edition bard, not mechanically. Spellcasters in 4th edition are a lot less versatile than their 3rd edition, but much more consistent in what they can do, and this version of the bard fits that theme.
The concept behind some kind of orator giving bonuses, but not using an implement, well... in 3rd edition, I'm sure there is some sort of non-instrument item that gives bonuses, and it'd be the same in 4th. As mentioned, that scarf would work, as does almost any other kind of item. You could even make costumes an implement: perhaps an acrobat wears acrobat garb for the bonus, and an orator would wear attention grabbing clothes. Such items would give the added benefit of having a certain property (+ enhancement bonus as an item bonus to acrobatics in the first, maybe diplomacy in the second). The bard of 3.5 was typically represented as a musician, and this one follows that. The bard of 3.5 had options for being other than a musician, but most fluff focused on the music aspect, and this has about the same.
All in all, this is a very good class, and I quite eagerly replaced my warlord with it, when my warlord met an 'untimely' end.

saric · Jul 15, 2008

atillac said:
This just makes my day. I enjoyed what I read.

Now, do you or anybody else know a good conversion for the Sha'ir?

I loved the 3.5e version of the sha'ir. i think it is one of the coolest class ideas. I cannot wait to see someone competent to convert this class into 4th E - I am noooowhere near that and will be a long time before i get to that level. In addition, it will probably be ages before wotc moves a finger on that. they have a looong to-do list (4th E versions of barbarian, their version of bard -though they might as well yank this one, gnomes, druids, etc., and ok, the monk, too...)

so, please, please please... sha'ir?

I'm glad you liked it. However I am unaware of any conversion for the sha'ir class as of yet.

Arius said:
Well done Saric! From what I have seen your bard seems both well balanced and thought out and from what I can tell, seems like an excellent 4e representation of the Bard class. I plan to take an in depth look at it and do some play testing before putting it into my campaign, but I'll let you know what I find and how it works out.

I have to agree with an earlier post though (I don't recall who it was), forget Devis and get a picture of Gimble in there

My only other critique is with the multiclass feat, Seeker of the Song. Was there not another ability that the feat could grant? This is essentially the same ability granted by the Cleric and Warlord multiclass feats, and while it is consitant, it doesn't seen like an iconic bard ability.

I'm glad you like it. Nobody likes devis, the dnd psa's are right, he's been outsourced

. As for the multi-class feat, it MUST be consistent with the others. The defender's ones allow them to mark, the strikers allow to deal additional damage, and the leader's can heal. Now I will concur that it isn't an iconic bard ability, but neither is combat challenge, divine challenge, hunter's quarry or warlock's curse for that matter.

While I could give the multiclass bard another ability I won't because this makes the most sense at the time.

winterwolf said:
First off, I think this class is amazingly well done. I think a lot of its powers should be along the lines of what the warlord does. Honestly, I played a warlord for 5 levels, and was bored solid playing it. It seemed to be the closest to what the 3.5 fighter was, in terms of all the stuff it could do. I found that my most effective attack was to give my ally a +3 to attack and damage, while I only did 3 damage. Seemed a bit... underpowered, I think.
Anyways, enough of my complaints about the warlord class (and I may have just been underplaying it... I've never been fond of melee classes, at least ones that don't have any flashy moves).
I was reading over the comments posted earlier, and there's one thing I want to comment about regarding bardic music as an encounter ability. Right now, it's slightly better than the cleric's abilies, since you can give a +1 to everyone (not just the +1 to yourself that clerics can use), plus heal with it... but you have to take into consideration that a cleric can give himself that bonus and STILL heal, which bards can't do unless they pick up the right feat.
Second, you have to realize that in 3.0, 3.5, a +1 bonus to hit did not amount to much when you throw in all the other bonuses people had, so it wasn't that game breaking to have it apply to everyone for an indefinite amount of time. In 4th edition, a +1 bonus to attack and damage IS fairly major. If, however, you feel that it lasting until the end of your next turn, perhaps give it a sustain minor with the caveat that it can only be sustained twice? There are certain wizard spells like that.
The thing to remember about 4th edition is that all of the classes are different mechanically, but not thematically. The bard itself cannot be the same as the 3rd edition bard, not mechanically. Spellcasters in 4th edition are a lot less versatile than their 3rd edition, but much more consistent in what they can do, and this version of the bard fits that theme.
The concept behind some kind of orator giving bonuses, but not using an implement, well... in 3rd edition, I'm sure there is some sort of non-instrument item that gives bonuses, and it'd be the same in 4th. As mentioned, that scarf would work, as does almost any other kind of item. You could even make costumes an implement: perhaps an acrobat wears acrobat garb for the bonus, and an orator would wear attention grabbing clothes. Such items would give the added benefit of having a certain property (+ enhancement bonus as an item bonus to acrobatics in the first, maybe diplomacy in the second). The bard of 3.5 was typically represented as a musician, and this one follows that. The bard of 3.5 had options for being other than a musician, but most fluff focused on the music aspect, and this has about the same.
All in all, this is a very good class, and I quite eagerly replaced my warlord with it, when my warlord met an 'untimely' end.

I'm not quite sure where you are going with your post. You first imply bardic music is better than channel divinity, and then say make it last longer. I have also implied in this entire thread and the updated pdf that implements can almost be anything as long as it can be worn/carried and has some sort of relevance to the bard's form of inspiring. Yes I chose music as the basic idea, but it doesn't mean you can't alter the flavor.

I'm glad you like the class, toss me a line with more feedback or balance issues if you can.

LordArchaon · Jul 15, 2008

Wow, this class is fantastic, I hope I will be able to take some design lessons from here and there.

My only critiques, that I've seen are issues you're already considering, are these:

Rapiers are the best light blades: every character pursuing the use of light blades should expend a feat to use them (that's why rogues don't get the proficiency from the beginning I think). So I would not give bards rapier proficiency.
The melee powers need to specify the weapons that can be used, in a way similar to that of the rogue. Nothing prevents you from leaving the longsword there, after all, bards use "spellsongs" to strike with their weapons, I'm sure such a thing can overcome some physical laws... As long as they make for good flavor
I would see (personal point of view here) a more "bardish" choice to have the Healing Hymn mechanic for Inspire Courage and vice-versa. This because I see the Inspire Courage ability more a signature ability for the bard. Of course that would leave a leader with considerably less healing power at low levels, but with all the HP boosting powers of the class, that would soon change. And Bardic Music: Healing Hymn would be a must song for every bard...
This would also fix the multiclass bard, that with Healing Hymn looks exactly like a multiclass cleric, nothing hints at a bardic nature.

Thank you for spending so much time on this.

Arius · Aug 4, 2008

saric said:
I'm glad you like it. Nobody likes devis, the dnd psa's are right, he's been outsourced . As for the multi-class feat, it MUST be consistent with the others. The defender's ones allow them to mark, the strikers allow to deal additional damage, and the leader's can heal. Now I will concur that it isn't an iconic bard ability, but neither is combat challenge, divine challenge, hunter's quarry or warlock's curse for that matter. While I could give the multiclass bard another ability I won't because this makes the most sense at the time.

I understand the need to be consistant, but I would argue that there is variation in the existing multiclass feats and that the similiarities are pretty broad in some cases and dealing with such a small pool of choices it seems unlikely to not have some similarity.

The Fighter multiclass feat does not allow you to use Combat Challenge, but instead gives a bonus to attack + marking the opponent. While the Paladin multiclass feat allows you to use Divine Challenge, the equivalent of the Fighters Combat Challenge. Yes the both allow you to mark, but that is the only similarity.

While the Warlock allows you to use that pact's at-will power as an encounter power, not warlock's curse which would be more consistent with the Rangers Hunter's Quarry and the Rogue's Sneak Attack. Sure the pact at-will does damage, but the damage is consistent with most other at-wills without the added extra effects (specifically extra damage if X happens), but the extra effects are pretty easy to avoid since it's a once per encounter ability. In that way work's more like control effect than increased damage, and more along the lines of Wizard's multiclass feat.

Clerics and Warlord's have the equivalent ability with their multiclass feat, which is at least consistent, but I just think that every leader having their class healing ability is going to lead to a list of "choices" which have the same effect. You could just have a Leader multiclass feat where you choose a leader class and gain their class healing feature.

Now as for iconic abilities, I would argue that the warlock's curse and hunter's quarry (4e version of favored enemies) are iconic abilities. And while the combat challenge isn't an iconic fighter ability, I'm not sure that 3e fighter's had an iconic ability other than crap-loads of feats, which obviously doesn't translate into 4e given the number of feats all characters get. Leaving only the paladin that doesn’t quite fit the mold, and the only iconic ability that carried over being smite or lay of hands.

In any case, I will likely make the change in my campaign, you may or may not, but it doesn't change the fact that its a solid piece of work. Again kudos and thanks for all your hard work! I'm looking forward to seeing it in play.

HalWhitewyrm · Aug 7, 2008

Saric, is the most current version the one on the PDF download?

Has anyone playtested this class already and has feedback? At first glance it looks great and seems like a fantastic conversion of the 3e Bard to 4e, but I'd like to know also how it handles on the field.

4th Edition Bard

Zetesofos

Explorer

leodav

First Post

saric

First Post

atillac

First Post

Arius

First Post

winterwolf

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saric

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LordArchaon

Explorer

Arius

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HalWhitewyrm

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