PFRPG Alpha - Rise of the Runelords AP

jkason · Jun 27, 2008

Bialaska said:
The new skill system is really nasty for anyone, possibly except Rogues, Bards and Wizards (and Wizards only because they focus on Intelligence).

I have to say, it definitely helped me making my monk that jump, tumble, and balance are now all one skill (Acrobatics), and Spot and Listen are rolled into a single skill, too. I had to make a lot fewer hard choices in that case.

The new skills do love the rogue, though. Their points aren't really higher, but between Acrobatics, Stealth, and the new Disable additions, rogues can now spend 3 points where they originally would have had to spend 7! Wowzers.

I'm not sure casters get quite as much of a break, but at least Spellcraft and Concentration are the same skill now, so you don't have to choose between identifying a spell and managing to cast one.

Shayuri · Jun 27, 2008

Yeah, but sorcerors are kind of shafted by that too, because "concentration" is now Int based, not Con based. Con is roughly as important to a sorceror as Dexterity tends to be...which is to say, second only to Charisma. Intelligence is, however, by and large unimportant, and a good place to put one of the 10's that the point buy pretty much requires you have (Wis and Str are similar).

As a sorceror, I can't justify taking a 12 or 14 in Intelligence instead of Con or Dex unless the concept reeeeeHEElly demands it.

In days past, Con was fine, because the only -necessary- skill for a Sorceror, Concentration, was Con based. Spellcraft wasn't terribly important, frankly...counterspelling as a sorceror is nice when it works, but you can never count on having the right spell so I rarely bothered. Spellcraft had its uses, but given the criticality of spending skill ranks wisely, I didn't usually bother unless the concept was unusually skilled and knowledgeable with magic (in which case I'd often consider a wizard instead).

No longer.

Bah!

Oh well.

jkason · Jun 27, 2008

Shayuri said:
Dang...and the new skill system is really really nasty for sorcerors...they only get 2 ranks per level...unless they get an Int bonus, and the point buy makes that a pretty rough choice to make. Harsh!

Not to metagame too much, but Chaine does look to have Appraise and Know (arcane) covered (and since he's a wizard, he's already invested in their primary stat). Fly won't be of much use until higher levels; probably ditto Use Magic Device (if you need it at all, assuming Chaine can Appraise what we find). Unless you want Craft of Profession for fluff reasons, you really only have to choose between Spellcraft, Bluff, and Intimidate for your two points, assuming you're only picking class skills, which is maybe less daunting?

jkason · Jun 27, 2008

Shayuri said:
Yeah, but sorcerors are kind of shafted by that too, because "concentration" is now Int based, not Con based. Con is roughly as important to a sorceror as Dexterity tends to be...which is to say, second only to Charisma. Intelligence is, however, by and large unimportant, and a good place to put one of the 10's that the point buy pretty much requires you have (Wis and Str are similar).

As a sorceror, I can't justify taking a 12 or 14 in Intelligence instead of Con or Dex unless the concept reeeeeHEElly demands it.

In days past, Con was fine, because the only -necessary- skill for a Sorceror, Concentration, was Con based.

No longer.

Bah!

Oh well.

True 'nough. I was perusing the Paizo boards, and a couple people have taken exception to Concentration as an Int skill, since it seems to unfairly benefit wizards and penalize other casters.

You'd think they might change the Spellcraft skill to attune to whatever your primary casting stat is, if they wanted it to be a function of your ability to cast. Hmmm... maybe I should suggest that...

jason

Shayuri · Jun 27, 2008

Yeah, but...I'll only get 2 ranks per level EVER, see.

Not to mention it'd be nice, yes nice, to have the -option- of having a Craft or Profession skill, since I get a nice little racial bonus to one.

I mean, since I pretty much -have- to have Spellcraft maxed, that really only gives me 1 discretionary skill point per level left...ever. Forever.

It burns, master, it burnses me.

Bialaska · Jun 27, 2008

Shayuri said:
Yeah, but...I'll only get 2 ranks per level EVER, see.

Not to mention it'd be nice, yes nice, to have the -option- of having a Craft or Profession skill, since I get a nice little racial bonus to one.

I mean, since I pretty much -have- to have Spellcraft maxed, that really only gives me 1 discretionary skill point per level left...ever. Forever.

It burns, master, it burnses me.

Uhm, exactly how is 2 skill points per level different than in 3.5? There you had 2 skill points too and needed to maximize Spellcraft and Concentration.

Also it is rather cheap to get 12 in your abilities, so perhaps Cha 16 (5 points), Int 12 (2), Con 13 (3), Dex 13 (3) and then you got 2 points left for either +1 Charisma or +2 to Wis or Str.

Sorcerers are better off than druids, let me tell you. In 3.5 as a Druid you needed Wisdom and a bit of constitution (for hit points and concentration). For the points you had left you could get Some Int and Cha for skill points and bonuses to Handle Animal. Now your wild shape does not override your own forms attributes, but instead enhances them, which means that it's not a waste to have 12+ in the physical attributes.

Walking Dad · Jun 27, 2008

But in the standard system you would be getting only 2 skill points after first level, too.

And if you use your 2nd and 3rd level 'spare' point on two different crafts, you got both of them on 4 (rank+class skill bonus). Not that bad.

jkason · Jun 27, 2008

Walking Dad said:
But in the standard system you would be getting only 2 skill points after first level, too.

And if you use your 2nd and 3rd level 'spare' point on two different crafts, you got both of them on 4 (rank+class skill bonus). Not that bad.

I'm thinking that may actually be the core frustration. Before, Shayuri would have been able to stat up a 1st level sorcerer with a moderate number of trained skills right at first level (few of them maxed, mind you, but several more could have been trained, which has its own benefits). Now, she'll have to wade through several levels to get the same effect. I can understand how that could be more difficult when making a first level decision.

jason

The Rolling Man · Jun 27, 2008

Personally, I like the simplified skill system. Then again, I have a rogue and my sorcerer in the other game was lvl 3 when I created him, so I had more choices. It is true that you do not get as many points to customize your character to fit your background. Maybe gms could award a free background skill point to place in a skill like craft, profession, perform or something like that. In any case, since you get more out of each skill point, getting a decent intel score might be more interesting.

Azor Grimcleaver · Jun 27, 2008

Hey guys. I'm still here, just had some difficulty logging on since last night.

I do agree that some classes got a bit shafted with the new skills rules. If you guys are OK with it, lets just start playing "as is" and see if changes need to be made. I'm perfectly willing to hear any concerns, and alter things to help fine-tune the game.