Wolfspider
Explorer
Well, that's the funny thing. The Noldor were wise (and Wise) in general. The offspring of Feanor were the ones who really lacked gumption, it seems.
Middle Earth D20 Conversion
- Thread starter Wolfspider
- Start date
Well, that's the funny thing. The Noldor were wise (and Wise) in general. The offspring of Feanor were the ones who really lacked gumption, it seems.
GruTheWanderer
First Post
Feedback from players on racial bonuses
Hi All,
I asked my four players to look at three sets of ME racial bonuses (Colonel's, Wolfspider's, and mine). By and large they don't like the idea of sacrificing class levels to play any of the elves. Their comments are:
1) Even if the average elves are powerful (with many bonuses), the ones that join adventuring groups should be younger and less powerful. Powerful elves can have the bonuses due to many character levels and great age.
2) If there are bonuses which all elves must have (immune to disease), balance them out with some disadvantages (i.e. due to their immortality, elves have a difficult time understanding the other mortal races, giving them penalties to bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy to non-elves).
For my part, I'm going to use the PH stats for the elf PCs in my party (who will all be Silvan elves).
Derek
Hi All,
I asked my four players to look at three sets of ME racial bonuses (Colonel's, Wolfspider's, and mine). By and large they don't like the idea of sacrificing class levels to play any of the elves. Their comments are:
1) Even if the average elves are powerful (with many bonuses), the ones that join adventuring groups should be younger and less powerful. Powerful elves can have the bonuses due to many character levels and great age.
2) If there are bonuses which all elves must have (immune to disease), balance them out with some disadvantages (i.e. due to their immortality, elves have a difficult time understanding the other mortal races, giving them penalties to bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy to non-elves).
For my part, I'm going to use the PH stats for the elf PCs in my party (who will all be Silvan elves).
Derek
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
One of the things that has been discussed on threads like these is the relative power levels of the races, and whether to balance them. In my opinion, this conversion is more about accurately portraying Tolkien's Middle Earth than providing balance. Balance is usually of paramount importance to me, but in this case, no.
What that means is that the Noldor are just more powerful than the other races. That's how Tolkien depicts them. There really are no disadvantages to speak of for any of the Elves in Tolkien's work. Even the Noldor, although one could say that their pride might give them a hit to Wisdom - yet they are always accounted to be wise by Tolkien.
Now, I'm not heated about this, if anyone construes what I'm saying that way. However, I do want to emphasize again something I've said before concerning this - Tolkien's Noldor and Sindar Elves are unbalancing in D&D terms. I strongly recommend that if a DM or player has a problem with that, that the Noldor and Sindar simply not be allowed as a PC choice. I don't like saying "Noldor and Sindar are not allowed as PCs," but that's just in keeping with 3e's policy of anything is possible.
What would be nice is if more folk could playtest the Elves "as is," and let us know about balance problems in regards to EL, and then we could adjust them up or down. A lot o times, what seems unbalanced from a reading of the material may not be unbalanced in actual play. Besides, I've been thinking that maybe the EL's are a bit high for the Noldor and Sindar.
What that means is that the Noldor are just more powerful than the other races. That's how Tolkien depicts them. There really are no disadvantages to speak of for any of the Elves in Tolkien's work. Even the Noldor, although one could say that their pride might give them a hit to Wisdom - yet they are always accounted to be wise by Tolkien.
Now, I'm not heated about this, if anyone construes what I'm saying that way. However, I do want to emphasize again something I've said before concerning this - Tolkien's Noldor and Sindar Elves are unbalancing in D&D terms. I strongly recommend that if a DM or player has a problem with that, that the Noldor and Sindar simply not be allowed as a PC choice. I don't like saying "Noldor and Sindar are not allowed as PCs," but that's just in keeping with 3e's policy of anything is possible.
What would be nice is if more folk could playtest the Elves "as is," and let us know about balance problems in regards to EL, and then we could adjust them up or down. A lot o times, what seems unbalanced from a reading of the material may not be unbalanced in actual play. Besides, I've been thinking that maybe the EL's are a bit high for the Noldor and Sindar.
Wolfspider
Explorer
From my participation in several threads concerning ECLs, I can testify that they're not easy to determine. Playtesting IS needed before these numbers can be verified; there is no magic formula, unfortunately.
I agree with ColonelHardison when he says that Noldor and Sindar are simply more powerful than other races. Rather than giving them arbitrary penalties to skills that aren't reflected in the books, I gave them an ECL number to provide some idea of balance. As far as not allowing characters to play these races, I am not so sure. I had a lot of fun role-playing my Noldor elf Anthestin in the old MERP campaign I participated in, and even though he was powerful, he did not abuse his power.
In addition, the world of Middle Earth has a built in mechanism that provides balance: The all-seeing Eye of Sauron. A powerful character who flaunts his abilities is going to get noticed and then hunted down in short order.
I agree with ColonelHardison when he says that Noldor and Sindar are simply more powerful than other races. Rather than giving them arbitrary penalties to skills that aren't reflected in the books, I gave them an ECL number to provide some idea of balance. As far as not allowing characters to play these races, I am not so sure. I had a lot of fun role-playing my Noldor elf Anthestin in the old MERP campaign I participated in, and even though he was powerful, he did not abuse his power.
In addition, the world of Middle Earth has a built in mechanism that provides balance: The all-seeing Eye of Sauron. A powerful character who flaunts his abilities is going to get noticed and then hunted down in short order.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
I wanted to again say for everyone to please read my posts, even the ones that seem heated, as though they had a big 
in them. Please, don't take anything I say as dismissive or combative - it's not meant that way. I just happen to have a negative score in my Diplomacy skill Just remember: my way of doing things is certainly not the only way. It's possible - in fact, quite likely - that your way is better than mine.
What I would like to see someone contribute is a rundown of the Middle Earth races made with low-power campaigns in mind. My stats pre-suppose a high powered game.
Wolfspider has a good idea concerning powerful characters and Sauron. Perhaps a variant of the old Ravenloft powers check would help in this regard, with Sauron constantly scrying for any hint of a major figure of power moving in Middle Earth.
in them. Please, don't take anything I say as dismissive or combative - it's not meant that way. I just happen to have a negative score in my Diplomacy skill Just remember: my way of doing things is certainly not the only way. It's possible - in fact, quite likely - that your way is better than mine.What I would like to see someone contribute is a rundown of the Middle Earth races made with low-power campaigns in mind. My stats pre-suppose a high powered game.
Wolfspider has a good idea concerning powerful characters and Sauron. Perhaps a variant of the old Ravenloft powers check would help in this regard, with Sauron constantly scrying for any hint of a major figure of power moving in Middle Earth.
GruTheWanderer
First Post
Thinking out loud
I've been musing about the major NPCs in my campaign, and thought I'd give them classes/levels and see what this group thinks. Keep in mind my group is now fifth level and may go as far as twelth level (before I move to Japan).
Gil-galad (Ari10) - High King of the Elves in Lindon, around 1800 years old, was too young to experience most of the fighting in the First Age, remains in Lindon
Elrond (Ari7) - Now around 1700 years old, also without significant combat experience, but leads Lindon's armies to the defense of Eregion
Celebrimbor (Exp15) - Rather than making him a cleric, I'll make him what he was: greatest craftsman among the Noldor of Eregion.
Celeborn (Ari8) - Like Elrond, has not fought in many battles to this date, but leads the sortie that holds back Sauron's vanguard until the main army reaches Eregion
Galadriel (Sor15) - According to Tolkien, the only equal to Galadriel among the elves was Feanor (he being more physical and she being more mental). She remains in Lorien during this war.
Amroth (Ari8) - Lord of the elves of Lorien, allies with the Dwarves of Moria to ambush Sauron's forces from the rear
Durin (Ftr10) - Have to check the appendix to see if one of the Durins was king of Moria at this time, but the dwarves had frequent combat experience with the various orcs in the Misty Mountains (Gundabad, etc)
Tar-Minastir (Ari10) - Current King of Numenor, does not go to war himself, but sends his navy and army to the rescue of Lindon
Ciryatur (Ftr12) - A great captain of the ships of Numenor, sets forces ashore in Lindon and Vinyalonde to stop Sauron's advance.
Sauron (Sor20) - He has the One Ring. Clearly a powerful sorceror even in the First Age, now he's leading armies into battle. I don't plan on having the party ever get near him.
I'll give them more detail as needed.
Derek
I've been musing about the major NPCs in my campaign, and thought I'd give them classes/levels and see what this group thinks. Keep in mind my group is now fifth level and may go as far as twelth level (before I move to Japan).
Gil-galad (Ari10) - High King of the Elves in Lindon, around 1800 years old, was too young to experience most of the fighting in the First Age, remains in Lindon
Elrond (Ari7) - Now around 1700 years old, also without significant combat experience, but leads Lindon's armies to the defense of Eregion
Celebrimbor (Exp15) - Rather than making him a cleric, I'll make him what he was: greatest craftsman among the Noldor of Eregion.
Celeborn (Ari8) - Like Elrond, has not fought in many battles to this date, but leads the sortie that holds back Sauron's vanguard until the main army reaches Eregion
Galadriel (Sor15) - According to Tolkien, the only equal to Galadriel among the elves was Feanor (he being more physical and she being more mental). She remains in Lorien during this war.
Amroth (Ari8) - Lord of the elves of Lorien, allies with the Dwarves of Moria to ambush Sauron's forces from the rear
Durin (Ftr10) - Have to check the appendix to see if one of the Durins was king of Moria at this time, but the dwarves had frequent combat experience with the various orcs in the Misty Mountains (Gundabad, etc)
Tar-Minastir (Ari10) - Current King of Numenor, does not go to war himself, but sends his navy and army to the rescue of Lindon
Ciryatur (Ftr12) - A great captain of the ships of Numenor, sets forces ashore in Lindon and Vinyalonde to stop Sauron's advance.
Sauron (Sor20) - He has the One Ring. Clearly a powerful sorceror even in the First Age, now he's leading armies into battle. I don't plan on having the party ever get near him.
I'll give them more detail as needed.
Derek
GruTheWanderer
First Post
Inside joke
I had to share this with somebody. My players encountered a large bearded man at a hunting lodge in the woods who called himself Tauron. His stables were filled with strong horses, and hunting dogs ran around his feet. On the walls of his lodge were the heads and hides of dire boar, grizzly bears, great cats, and crocodiles. The woods themselves had appeared overnight, and disappeared after they left.
They don't realize who they met, but many of you do, right?
Derek
I had to share this with somebody. My players encountered a large bearded man at a hunting lodge in the woods who called himself Tauron. His stables were filled with strong horses, and hunting dogs ran around his feet. On the walls of his lodge were the heads and hides of dire boar, grizzly bears, great cats, and crocodiles. The woods themselves had appeared overnight, and disappeared after they left.
They don't realize who they met, but many of you do, right?
Derek
Wolfspider
Explorer
Gotta be Orome, the Huntsman of the Valar. "Taur" means "woods," doesn't it?
LordMelkor{Talos}
First Post
What! Could you direct me to this quote by Tolkien? What about Fingolfin. I personally see Galadriel at level comparable to Maedhros, Finrod, Fingon or Turgon.
By the way, how do you see Gandalf and Balrog?
Wolfspider, how do you see various Middle Earth characters in your conversion, could you list their levels and classes?
Last edited:
GruTheWanderer
First Post
Galadriel reference
It's in the Unfinished Tales, pg 241. "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."
Christopher Tolkien admits that the section on Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales is very patchy and has many variant accounts. It seems that J.R.R. continued to meditate on Galadriel long after writing LOTR. But while she was relatively inactive during the First Age, she was certainly a mover in the Second and Third Age.
Elrond is the most perplexing character for me. I imagine that by the War of the Ring, he has experience as fighter (against Sauron at end of Second Age) and cleric (probably many levels) and perhaps as ranger (like his sons after him, he surely wandered the North while younger). But what do make him at this time? He's been living in Gil-galad's court, but could have participated in fighting orcs in the Misty Mountains? Aristocrat, cleric, fighter, ranger? It's somewhat important as I'm sure the party will encounter him in the campaign ahead.
Derek
LordMelkor{Talos} said:
It's in the Unfinished Tales, pg 241. "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."
Christopher Tolkien admits that the section on Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales is very patchy and has many variant accounts. It seems that J.R.R. continued to meditate on Galadriel long after writing LOTR. But while she was relatively inactive during the First Age, she was certainly a mover in the Second and Third Age.
Elrond is the most perplexing character for me. I imagine that by the War of the Ring, he has experience as fighter (against Sauron at end of Second Age) and cleric (probably many levels) and perhaps as ranger (like his sons after him, he surely wandered the North while younger). But what do make him at this time? He's been living in Gil-galad's court, but could have participated in fighting orcs in the Misty Mountains? Aristocrat, cleric, fighter, ranger? It's somewhat important as I'm sure the party will encounter him in the campaign ahead.
Derek
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