Mimicking WotC's layout design, fonts, etc. . .

fissionessence · Jun 22, 2008

This might not be the same kind of legal advice people around here are used to dealing with, but hopefully someone has some insight/experience.

I was just wondering how close a 3PP could come to mimicking Wizards's 4E layout design without infringing on any kind of copyright or whatever restrictions. Things like margin width, column width and font sizes seem like no big deal, but what about when you start getting into the precise fonts that their books use (Mentor and Mentor Sans), copying the hues in their monster stat blocks, and using the same gradient in the background of every other box in the power tables?

Additionally, the SRD seems to suggest that 3PPs may use the power icons; does anyone know if that's actually the case? If it is, have these symbols been made freely available? (I was able to rip them out from pdfs of the books for personal use, but I wanted to see what was known about using them commercially, and how then they should be obtained officially.) Along similar but different same lines, what about WotC's special fonts DNDVecna and DNDLolth (used for their main headings and subheadings repsectively)? I was able to rip the Lolth font, but not the Vecna font (once again, for personal use), but I hoped someone would have insight on what kind of things one would actually be able to with any of those fonts [legally].

Thanks for your time!

~ fissionessence

tensen · Jun 23, 2008

fissionessence said:
I was just wondering how close a 3PP could come to mimicking Wizards's 4E layout design without infringing on any kind of copyright or whatever restrictions. Things like margin width, column width and font sizes seem like no big deal, but what about when you start getting into the precise fonts that their books use (Mentor and Mentor Sans), copying the hues in their monster stat blocks, and using the same gradient in the background of every other box in the power tables?

You are talking about trade dress. Which I believe falls under the same category as trademark, and not related to copyright.

Under the 3rd edition days there was of course lots of mimicing of the type of pseudo fantasy cover look for the book covers of d20 products. Later licenses did specifically mention restrictions, but overall it isn't necessary for WOTC to list it in their licenses, because there already are laws regarding trade dress use.

I recommend you don't chance things by making it too close. After all, you really won't be impressing your customers. They are looking for you to make something creative and useful for them, copying WOTC's look is actually a bad first impression of your creative abilities.

Marius Delphus · Jun 24, 2008

You may use the power icons. When presenting game information, you need to make sure you follow GSL restrictions.

But if you have any intention of selling your product (or making it available outside your immediate gaming group by any means), I strongly suggest you don't "mimic" WOTC's overall "look and feel." Make your own.

The issues tensen listed above are serious ones. I quite agree that you can't impress customers by copying WOTC, and that you run a very high risk of becoming entangled in legal action for trade dress infringement.

I recommend you show your customers that your work is valuable in its own right, not because it looks like WOTC's work.

fissionessence · Jun 24, 2008

Thanks, guys; I was completely unfamiliar with the concept of 'trade dress', so I'm glad you appropriated me to the term. I'll definitely abandon the idea of directly copying the design of the 4E book (I've already set to work on my own since reading these posts).

I guess this is kind of irrelevant to the legal issues, but I'd almost rather 3PPs used layouts that mimicked WotC's just to prevent some of the atrocities that I've downloaded (in terms of their design). I'd rather see something cookie-cut and not creative than something poorly done. Ah well, though; I guess that's just my opinion.

~

LeaderDesslok · Jun 25, 2008

fissionessence said:
Additionally, the SRD seems to suggest that 3PPs may use the power icons; does anyone know if that's actually the case? If it is, have these symbols been made freely available? (I was able to rip them out from pdfs of the books for personal use, but I wanted to see what was known about using them commercially, and how then they should be obtained officially.)

I saw a message from Scott Rouse over on the Wizards boards. He is looking to get those power symbols made ready for people to use in their own products, but as of now there is no separate file for you find them in. The method you describe is pretty much the only way to get them at the moment, AFAIK.

Morrus · Jun 25, 2008

fissionessence said:
Thanks, guys; I was completely unfamiliar with the concept of 'trade dress', so I'm glad you appropriated me to the term. I'll definitely abandon the idea of directly copying the design of the 4E book (I've already set to work on my own since reading these posts).

I guess this is kind of irrelevant to the legal issues, but I'd almost rather 3PPs used layouts that mimicked WotC's just to prevent some of the atrocities that I've downloaded (in terms of their design). I'd rather see something cookie-cut and not creative than something poorly done. Ah well, though; I guess that's just my opinion.

~

Yeah - trade dress is a big deal, and a large part of brand identity; and, as such, it is jealously protected - and rightly so!

Marius Delphus · Jun 25, 2008

fissionessence said:
Along similar but different same lines, what about WotC's special fonts DNDVecna and DNDLolth (used for their main headings and subheadings repsectively)? I was able to rip the Lolth font, but not the Vecna font (once again, for personal use), but I hoped someone would have insight on what kind of things one would actually be able to with any of those fonts [legally].

To answer this other part of your question: nothing. There is nothing you may legally do with fonts ripped out of a PDF. The act of ripping the font does not provide you with a license to use the font.

fissionessence · Jun 26, 2008

Marius Delphus said:
To answer this other part of your question: nothing. There is nothing you may legally do with fonts ripped out of a PDF. The act of ripping the font does not provide you with a license to use the font.

Yeah. I guess I was just hoping that someone would know of any licensing/purchasing options WotC might have announced for its fonts. Anyway, it doesn't matter at this point since those two fonts (imo) play a pretty big role in defining their 'trade dress' identity. Therefore, I don't expect I'll be pursuing the idea of using them for anything outside of non-commercial personal projects.

~

BlindOgre · Jul 15, 2008

fissionessence said:
Yeah. I guess I was just hoping that someone would know of any licensing/purchasing options WotC might have announced for its fonts. Anyway, it doesn't matter at this point since those two fonts (imo) play a pretty big role in defining their 'trade dress' identity. Therefore, I don't expect I'll be pursuing the idea of using them for anything outside of non-commercial personal projects.

~

However, as regards stat blocks; from the 4e SRD:
"Use the stat block templates identified and included in
the SRD as guidelines (not constraints) for producing your
own original content requiring such formatting. Since your
content will resemble like content in the Core Rulebooks, it
will be more readily usable. You may not reproduce the
blank stat block templates included in the SRD in a
Licensed Product."

So, for producing stat blocks at least, the SRD actually encourages matching their format, and the templates are presented in a font similar to Mentor Sans.

For the remainder of the material, a completely different general trade dress is required, as the GSL specifically addresses such.

Having purchased the Mentor Sans font, I produced the following (small sample) stat block in OpenOffice Writer. Which one do you think came from the PHB and which one did I produce? Try guessing without peeking at the PHB.