"Syndrome" Syndrome: or the Fallacy of "Special"

Henry · Nov 9, 2009

tyrlaan said:
It's not about feeling somehow less special because power level is balanced, rather all classes play the same in a general sense. In 3e, if all you wanted to do was bash down the door and kill things with your pointy stick, you could do that no problem while your friend spent 20 minutes figuring out which spell to cast on their turn.

But is your friend getting skipped for 20 minutes, or are you waiting for 20 minutes while the DM stops the action so that your friend decides? That was one stated problem in the gap between 3E and 4E.

billd91 · Nov 9, 2009

AllisterH said:
Hell, the very last scene where Dash runs a race I found very distasteful. I found it akin to a scene where Osain Bolt decides to run a 100m against the Special Olympics 100m and comes in second/third.

Why exactly would I cheer at that?

Your comparison would only fit completely if Usain Bolt lived in a world in which he was living, working, and being peers to those Special Olympics athletes every day or if he had to appear as one of those Special Olympians in his regular life. That's not the case. One of Dash's problems throughout the movie is that he has trouble relating to his peers - he cannot go out for sports and play his heart out like the rest of the kids can because of his powers. In the end, the family compromises. Dash can't use the gifts he has that no other kid can hope to have to their full extent, but he gets to participate with his peers. And if kids relating to their peers isn't worth cheering about, I don't know what is.

Henry · Nov 9, 2009

felix said:
without each individual possessing unique and significant strengths and weaknesses, there is no reason why Andy the Fighter couldn't have solved the problem as easily as Bob the Cleric. (Different methods, perhaps, but problem solved as easily.)

Actually, 4E classes possess more unique and significant strengths than 3e did: As in Basic D&D and OD&D, you can't pick and choose class levels to get a certain effect; you can diversify, but you will never have the same strengths as someone who IS a certain class. Any one character, no matter the magic items and prep-time, WILL NOT SURVIVE a given challenge meant for a group.

On the other hand, I've seen a 3E level 11 Artificer destroy a 5-unit 10th level NPC group of mercenaries in under 10 rounds thanks to his mixing of Clerical, Artificer, and Wizardly disciplines. Superior Invisibility, non-detection, true seeing, teleport, disintegrate, bolt of glory, flesh to stone, and The remaining two NPCs teleported out before an Unseen God could strike them down, too.

I haven't seen anything in the 4E rules yet that could compare to it, short of a group of minions.

Belen · Nov 9, 2009

Intense_Interest said:
Lets ignore the fact that the source of the quote is a deranged maniac; the quote itself, when applied as it has been here, is completely dismantled by the actions of the movie.

Really, you think Dash is a deranged maniac?

Helen: Dash... this is the third time this year you've been sent to the office. We need to find a better outlet. A more... constructive outlet.
Dash: Maybe I could, if you'd let me go out for sports.
Helen: Honey, you know why we can't do that.
Dash: But I promise I'll slow up. I'll only be the best by a tiny bit.
Dash: Dashiell Robert Parr, you are an incredibly competitive boy, and a bit of a show-off. The last thing you need is temptation.
Dash: You always say 'Do your best', but you don't really mean it. Why can't I do the best that I can do?
Helen: Right now, honey, the world just wants us to fit in, and to fit in, we gotta be like everyone else.
Dash: But Dad always said our powers were nothing to be ashamed of, our powers made us special.
Helen: Everyone's special, Dash.
Dash: [muttering] Which is another way of saying no one is.

Belen · Nov 9, 2009

Honestly, though, if I was going to use the quite to define 4e, then I would argue that the "balance" as it is achieved in 4e means that individual characters have lost their unique ability to shine.

Sometimes it is fun to see a player save the day because of their unique place within the party.

Just my two cents.

Henry · Nov 9, 2009

Belen said:
Honestly, though, if I was going to use the quite to define 4e, then I would argue that the "balance" as it is achieved in 4e means that individual characters have lost their unique ability to shine.

Sometimes it is fun to see a player save the day because of their unique place within the party.

Just my two cents.

That I can see; you won't have someone casting the one spell that saved the day by encapsulating the Cloud Giant that is killing the party in the forcecage, or the Cleric that snatched victory from the jaws of defeat with a mass heal. However, in my experience it was almost always the spellcasters who had the moment; it was rarely the rogue who got the critical backstab, or the ranger who found the untrackable trail of a fugitive.

Tiberius · Nov 9, 2009

Henry said:
However, in my experience it was almost always the spellcasters who had the moment; it was rarely the rogue who got the critical backstab, or the ranger who found the untrackable trail of a fugitive.

You speak as though that is a problem; I find that it stands to reason that those who can rewrite the laws of reality by will alone or who act as conduits for the power of the divine should be more potent than those who cannot. The ability to pick any lock is nice, but is demonstrably inferior to the ability to make the lock cease to exist, or to simply warp space such that it no longer provides an obstacle. Being able to defeat any man in a duel is an admirable talent, but how can it compare to being able to banish your foe to another plane?

crazy_monkey1956 · Nov 9, 2009

Tiberius said:
You speak as though that is a problem; I find that it stands to reason that those who can rewrite the laws of reality by will alone or who act as conduits for the power of the divine should be more potent than those who cannot. The ability to pick any lock is nice, but is demonstrably inferior to the ability to make the lock cease to exist, or to simply warp space such that it no longer provides an obstacle. Being able to defeat any man in a duel is an admirable talent, but how can it compare to being able to banish your foe to another plane?

In the context of a believable fantasy world, that makes perfect sense.

In the context of a game meant to be enjoyed cooperatively by a group, its a very bad thing as it detracts from the enjoyment of the game by allowing one player (the one playing the high level wizard or cleric) to do everything the other characters can.

Tiberius · Nov 9, 2009

crazy_monkey1956 said:
In the context of a believable fantasy world, that makes perfect sense.

In the context of a game meant to be enjoyed cooperatively by a group, its a very bad thing as it detracts from the enjoyment of the game by allowing one player (the one playing the high level wizard or cleric) to do everything the other characters can.

The game depicts a believable fantasy world, does it not? As such, deviation from verisimilitude serves only to undermine the fundamentals of the game world itself; a self-defeating prospect. If the game world can't be taken seriously, how is it not a fatal flaw to the enjoyment of the game?

GMforPowergamers · Nov 9, 2009

Belen said:
Really, you think Dash is a deranged maniac?

Helen: Dash... this is the third time this year you've been sent to the office. We need to find a better outlet. A more... constructive outlet.
Dash: Maybe I could, if you'd let me go out for sports.
Helen: Honey, you know why we can't do that.
Dash: But I promise I'll slow up. I'll only be the best by a tiny bit.
Dash: Dashiell Robert Parr, you are an incredibly competitive boy, and a bit of a show-off. The last thing you need is temptation.
Dash: You always say 'Do your best', but you don't really mean it. Why can't I do the best that I can do?
Helen: Right now, honey, the world just wants us to fit in, and to fit in, we gotta be like everyone else.
Dash: But Dad always said our powers were nothing to be ashamed of, our powers made us special.
Helen: Everyone's special, Dash.
Dash: [muttering] Which is another way of saying no one is.

the real irony here is this is the defence that people use for 3.5...

"Well I never saw a selfish wizard step on the toes of a rouge even though they could"
"I don't think I ever saw a cleric buff to be better then the fighter"
"I never saw the animal compainon as a better fighter"

all of that is this: Helen: Right now, honey, the world just wants us to fit in, and to fit in, we gotta be like everyone else.

I think the incredables is a great take on being yourself and helping your fellow man. The problem is that people use the quote wrong...

can every pesent in a 4e game use powers? Can every Farmer call come and get it? Can every shop keeper sneak attack?

no of cource not, everyone isn't special, the PCs are special...the wizard is just no more special then the others now...