"Syndrome" Syndrome: or the Fallacy of "Special"

tyrlaan

Explorer
Originally Posted by tyrlaan
It's not about feeling somehow less special because power level is balanced, rather all classes play the same in a general sense. In 3e, if all you wanted to do was bash down the door and kill things with your pointy stick, you could do that no problem while your friend spent 20 minutes figuring out which spell to cast on their turn.​
But is your friend getting skipped for 20 minutes, or are you waiting for 20 minutes while the DM stops the action so that your friend decides? That was one stated problem in the gap between 3E and 4E.
If that's what you picked out of my comment, I think you may have missed my point.

My point is that a wizard plays different from a fighter in 3e. Drastically different. In 4e, this just isn't the case anymore. I'm not passing judgment one way or the other, but that is the crux of my point and my explanation on how I've heard the "everyone is special so no one is" quote come across.
 

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If that's what you picked out of my comment, I think you may have missed my point.

My point is that a wizard plays different from a fighter in 3e. Drastically different. In 4e, this just isn't the case anymore.
Except people disagree about that. I, for example.

I don't play my Wizard like a Fighter. I don't run into melee, I don't try to provoke enemies into striking me instead of my comrades. And that's just the core difference.

There is a difference whether you have heat vision or super speed. Both is special, but don't tell me that Flash is the same as Cyclops.
 

Celebrim

Legend
It's impossible to discuss the movie in any depth without getting overly political, because it is a highly politically charged movie where Brad Bird voices all sorts of political statements covertly, from the value and inherent dignity of motherhood, to criticism of a litigation centered culture, to social libertarianism.

I can't discuss that or my opinion of it, but I can point out several things.

The movie has three villains, each of which represents a deranged version of the libertarian ideas Bob represents. Each of them in some fashion misuses their individual rights in a selfish way that works to destroy those very rights.

1) Oliver Sansweet, the man who sues Bob for saving him from himself (and his pack of lawyers): "Mr. Sansweet didn't ask to be saved. Mr. Sansweet didn't want to be saved...You didn't save my life! You ruined my death, that's what you did!" - Oliver Sansweet is challenging the right of an individual to intervene in anothers life. Oliver Sansweet defeats Bob. The world Sansweet creates with the help of his lawyers is one where no one can intervene in anyones life save through faceless bureaucracies, communication by lawyers, and impersonal bureaucratic jargon. He creates a world filled with fear, where no one is willing to risk standing out because even if they try to help, they'll be punished. And since no one can stand out, it's a world without heroes. Society tries to console itself for its loss by saying that the world is now filled with everyday heroes, but without rights the individual proves to have no power, as we see from the next villain...
2) Bob's boss at the insurance agency: Bob is trying to save the world one policy at a time. He tries to help, but he faces the same obstacles to being an ordinary hero as he faced being an extraordinary one. He's forced to act covertly. He lives in fear of lawyers and the corporation he works for. "We're supposed to help our people! Starting with our
stockholders. Bob a company is like an enormous clock." Bob's boss believes no matter what the team comes first. The individual should be a 'cooperative cog', and that a person's real job is to help the team succeed and only the team succeed. When Mr. Huph is informed that someone needs help, his only concern is whether or not they would be legally required to help: "Well, let's hope we don't cover him." He's not interested in duty or compassion. He's interested in the team (and hense himself) getting ahead. Mr. Huph defeats Bob. Bob's exceptional ability is of no value compared with Mr. Huph's authority and position in the world of lawyers, restrictions, and companies. When Bob loses it, Mr. Huph ultimately wins.
3) Syndrome: Contrary to what you might think, Syndrome is a super like Bob. Syndrome (like Edna) is a 'gadgeteer' - a super with the incredible ability to make things. Syndrome doesn't however want to help other people. Syndrome wants to be liked and admired. Where as Bob does what he feels he must whether he gets rewarded, thanked or not, Syndrome only really cares about the rewards - fame, respect, power, wealth. This isn't real heroism though. It's just the mask of heroism. Bob is a hero who wears a mask (whether an actual mask or the mask of being ordinary) to disguise his heroism, Syndrome is a self-centered individual that wears the mask of a hero. Syndrome's threat, "And when everyone's super...no one will be.", isn't really credible. Syndrome isn't actually going to share. If he wanted to share, he would have done so. He might be lying to himself or to Bob, but Syndrome simply isn't the sort that is trying to help or enable others. Syndrome is much more honest when Bob gets him monologuing, "Now you respect me, because I'm a threat. That's the way it works." Personal power as far as Syndrome is concerned isn't to help others, but to push down, intimidate, and subjegate others.

"Everyone's special, Dash....Which is another way of saying no one is."

After Oliver Sansweet, the world becomes afraid of anyone standing out as special. Everyone is required to be ordinary. People are punished for winning (being heroic) and rewarded for losing (failing to help others). No one wants an inspiration. Oddly, the world didn't become afraid of heroes because of someone like Syndrome. They didn't become afraid of people using their power to oppress them, they became afraid of people actually helping them. Consequently they live in a world were everyone is oppressed reutinely. What they didn't count on is that although they could take away everyone's freedom to be heroic, they couldn't prevent people from using their talents to oppress them precisely because those people didn't care about their rules. Only the people who actually cared to help were punished.

Bob tries to be a heroic insurance agent, but fails. Helen is heroicly being a mother, but even she is failing at the task because she's forced to push down and suppress her children to get them to confom. But as a result her children are unprepared to deal with real life or to stand on their own, which means she's failed at her most basic job - getting her children ready to live their lives without a parent. Her children can only survive in a world of mediocrity. When something real happens, they don't know what to do despite the fact that they are extraordinarily capable individuals.

The message of the movie is that we can't escape our need for heroes and that we can't let envy and greed rule the society. Everyone has a role. Everyone isn't born 'incredible', but its worth noting that you don't have to be incredible to be a hero. Nobody in the movie could have done what Bob did, but anybody could have been the hero Bob was trying to be at work or the mother Helen was trying to be at home. They just weren't, in part because they didn't have any heroes to inspire them to do so. Everyone had to help and support everyone else, and it was ok to celebrate extraordinary accomplishment if it was done in the service of everyone.
 

Interesting post, and I think it makes sense to me. ;)

An interesting question, going back to the origin of the discussion - what would this really mean for a game? Do we need - inside the game - people playing the "mother trying to be heroic" alongside the mother with superpowers, so to speak? Or isn't the role of the game to let us play the one with superpowers we can hope to aspire to in real life?

Do their need to be weak player characters with no special abilities alongside "special" player characters to make this kind of point?

Or is this actually missing the point of playing characters in a roleplaying game? We play the game to be as "special" as we can't be in real life?
 

Marius Delphus

Adventurer
I agree that the film issues a warning about suppressing that which is special and settling for the average or (worse) the lowest common denominator. I disagree that it's the film's message, as I've explained.

Helen is correct, but her world hasn't really caught on. Dash and Syndrome are not correct. Just because everyone is special doesn't mean everyone has the same capabilities or deserves the same accolades; just because everyone is special doesn't mean Dash's speed isn't special, or Bob's (moral and physical) strength isn't special... et cetera. Helen and Dash, too, are talking past each other: she doesn't mean "special" the way he and Syndrome do.

Anyway, I think I've more than amply explained my views. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Helen and Dash, too, are talking past each other: she doesn't mean "special" the way he and Syndrome do.

I think you are correct in this at least. Helen is using 'special' in a way different than everyone else, however, Helen has got the got in the trap of using everyone's 'specialness' (in her sense) to excuse conformity and mediocrity.

The problem is that in the world Dash lives in, "everyone is special" means everyone is equally deserving of accolades for everything. Bob complains about this, "It's not a graduation. He's moving from the fourth grade to the fifth grade...They keep creating new ways to celebrate mediocrity."

Helen is actually in the wrong on this conversation, as she later realizes on the island. She's been requiring her kids to be something other than 'great' and celebrating only their mediocrity (and trying to get Bob to do the same), and in doing so, you hasn't been helping them. She tries to put the blame for this on Bob, by saying that its his emotional hang up that is involved, but really its hers. Bob's hang up is his unwillingness to accept help, not his desire for his son to be 'great'. Helen is too scared of the consequences of letting her children risk greatness to actually let them be special. The result is that they are crippled by her desire to protect them.

Everyone being "special" and everyone being "equal" doesn't mean that some people aren't plan "better" than others. There are people out there that are smarter, more charismatic, stronger, faster, more atheletic, more knowledgable etc. etc. than I am and who would beat me in any contest and who probably would be more suited to solving any problem we might need solved. They are better than me. However, their superiority doesn't infringe upon my dignity and value, nor does it give them to right to oppress my dignity and value. However, them merely doing what they are capable of doing isn't oppressing me. I can't blame them for my envy or jealousy, nor can I try to take from them what they have because it isn't "fair". All I can expect is the right to be as extraordinary as I can be without them trying to take that from me.
 

tyrlaan

Explorer
Except people disagree about that. I, for example.

I don't play my Wizard like a Fighter. I don't run into melee, I don't try to provoke enemies into striking me instead of my comrades. And that's just the core difference.

There is a difference whether you have heat vision or super speed. Both is special, but don't tell me that Flash is the same as Cyclops.

It's a matter of granularity. Yes, of course you don't run into melee with your Wizard. That's not my point. Forest, trees, and all that.

My Wizard, Fighter, Rogue, Invoker, Artificer, etc. all have 2 at-wills, 1 level 1 encounter power, 1 level 1 daily power, and so on. All of them make an attack roll against a defense score that's modified by one of their ability scores.

The 3e fighter could spend every turn saying "I hit that guy" and then roll 1d20 (or more depending on iterative attacks) and possibly damage.

The 3e wizard would say "I'm casting spell X" and pick targets and watch the DM make a bunch of saving throws OR say "I'm casting spell Y" and pick a target and make a ranged touch attack OR say "I'm casting spell Z" and pick some targets and watch them suffer because it's an area effect with no save.

The 3e wizard is required to manage resources on an entirely different level from the fighter. The 3e fighter can essentially go through life just spamming right-click on all its enemies. The 3e wizard can't plausibly do this. It's the nature of the system. Not all classes mechanically play the same.

In 4e, this is clearly not the case. All classes rely on the same resource management mechanics (barring the pending psion of course), the same attack resolution mechanics, etc.

I'm not arguing that once you dig deeper the classes are all the same. I'm also not arguing that I have an issue with all the 4e classes using the same overall mechanics. In fact, I very much like that this is the case. But to some, this takes away an element of play they used to enjoy - namely being able to play a dirt simple character.
 


Raven Crowking

First Post
Here is a post by Korgoth in another thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4992481-post60.html


In Korgoth's first game, "If everyone is special, then no one is" does not apply. Specialness is gained through excellence in play.

In Korgoth's second game, "If everyone is special, then no one is" does apply. Winning with Batman in this game is meaningless; it is indicative of nothing.

Whether one views any particular game as Korgoth's first or second game is another question entirely.



RC
 

Felix

Explorer
Marius Delphus said:
[Dash] realizes that his goal is really to *cheat* using his supernatural gifts.
Prepostureous!

That Dash or any of the supers are "cheating" by using their inborne talents is precicely the reasoning behind the supressive society that drives the Parrs underground, forces them to uproot multiple times, pigeonholes Bob in a corporate structure of automatons, and leads a mother to teach her children to not develop their talents - how can Violet be confident in herself among her peers when her own mother is basically teaching her that her talents are something to be ashamed of and hidden?

Syndrome demonstrates he's the sort of character that resorts, by default, to tearing others down in order to build himself up by comparison
And this is exactly what society at large has done to the supers.

movie-wise, this is definitely a bad-guy sort of trait.
Precicely.

Dash is mostly expressing pre-adolescent frustration
Dash may be a pre-adolescent, but he is expressing the exact same frustration as his father; the only difference is that while Dash is confused about the contradiction, Bob understands that what is happening to him and his family is evil.

Celebrim said:
Snip post 133
Celebrim said:
Snip post 136
Applause.
 

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