"Syndrome" Syndrome: or the Fallacy of "Special"

Marius Delphus · Nov 10, 2009

Felix said:
Prepostureous!

That Dash or any of the supers are "cheating" by using their inborne talents is precicely the reasoning behind the supressive society...

I believe you've misconstrued what I said. I said Dash's goal is to cheat... by using his super speed in foot-races against other elementary school students who have no hope of competing fairly with him. That's pretty much the definition of cheating. Similarly, Bob would be cheating if he used his super strength in Olympic weightlifting.

roguerouge · Nov 10, 2009

Umbran said:
And, by RC's note - there are a number of "normals" in the movie who all do their bit to help the Parrs - specifically Edna Mode (the fashion designer), the Government Agent, and Mirage (Syndrome's assistant). They don't take the same types of actions as the Parrs in physical combat, but there's a good argument the Parrs would have been hosed without them.

That's what I'm looking for then. I've not seen the film in some time.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Nov 10, 2009

tyrlaan said:
It's a matter of granularity. Yes, of course you don't run into melee with your Wizard. That's not my point. Forest, trees, and all that.

My Wizard, Fighter, Rogue, Invoker, Artificer, etc. all have 2 at-wills, 1 level 1 encounter power, 1 level 1 daily power, and so on. All of them make an attack roll against a defense score that's modified by one of their ability scores.

The 3e fighter could spend every turn saying "I hit that guy" and then roll 1d20 (or more depending on iterative attacks) and possibly damage.

The 3e wizard would say "I'm casting spell X" and pick targets and watch the DM make a bunch of saving throws OR say "I'm casting spell Y" and pick a target and make a ranged touch attack OR say "I'm casting spell Z" and pick some targets and watch them suffer because it's an area effect with no save.

The 3e wizard is required to manage resources on an entirely different level from the fighter. The 3e fighter can essentially go through life just spamming right-click on all its enemies. The 3e wizard can't plausibly do this. It's the nature of the system. Not all classes mechanically play the same..

No, he can do that just fine. Just take your Crossbow or Staff and do it.

But maybe you are right, it might be matter of granularities. My example Wizard is a Wizard that doesn't use his class abilities at own. The hypothetical 4E Wizard that tries to use his class powers as if he was a Fighter doesn't use his class ability well. Both "fail" on using their class powers effectively, just one possibly more than the other.

Raven Crowking · Nov 10, 2009

Perhaps relevant: Tell me how to play 4E and OD&D (so I can ignore it) « The Mule Abides

What that means is that I had to find a way to get other players to cooperate on good tactics without feeling like I was telling them what to do and depriving them of their own choices. The final realization was that even once I did so it didn’t make that much difference.......I admire that 4E gives everyone lots of choices every turn, but personally I’d rather trade that for the occasional chance to be the one whose decisions shape the entire session, when I’m the fighter with the only sword that can hit the shadow.

Celebrim · Nov 10, 2009

Marius Delphus said:
I believe you've misconstrued what I said. I said Dash's goal is to cheat... by using his super speed in foot-races against other elementary school students who have no hope of competing fairly with him. That's pretty much the definition of cheating.

Huh? No it isn't.

The definition of cheating is to defraud and decieve. Dash cheats when he loses. He does not cheat when he wins. When he wins it is because he is legitmately faster than the other students, not because he's gained an unfair advantage.

Dash competes fairly at all times. It's no more his fault that he runs faster than the other competitors than it is Usain Bolt's fault that he runs faster than the other competitors.

Compared to me, Usain Bolt is a super. Does that mean it would be unfair for him to compete with me? Should Usain bolt be forced to run with blocks of concrete in each hand to make the competition fair?

Similarly, Bob would be cheating if he used his super strength in Olympic weightlifting.

No, he wouldn't. It might make the other competitors feel bad to be so outclassed in the competition (or maybe not, considering that they might be supers as well), but it wouldn't be cheating on Bob's part.

While Bob clearly has superhuman ability, where would you draw the line? What if Bob cleared 600 lbs (and could only clear 600 lbs)? How would you know if he was (strong) 'normal' or a (weak) 'super'? When do you decide to disqualify people? When they can run the 100 yard dash in under 10 seconds? How about under 9.7? What about under 9.3?

The fact of the matter is that if you can clear 580 lbs, it's heroic and the question of whether you are a 'super' or 'normal' is rather irrelevant and redundant. You certainly aren't 'normal' if you can clear 580+ lbs. on a clean and jerk, but you also aren't (necessarily) cheating either.

Marius Delphus · Nov 10, 2009

Huh? What is more fraudulent and deceptive than taking part in a competition when one is orders of magnitude superior to any of the other competitors? Any illusion of fair play has been shattered, and even the faintest of hopes the other competitors might have of winning have been destroyed.

In the case of Dash and Bob, I don't have to draw a line that skirts "human normal." Dash has super speed. On screen, it's made clear that he outclasses by orders of magnitude any runner without super speed. To run in a race where nobody but him has super speed, and win, is to cheat. Likewise, Bob has super strength. On screen, it's made clear that he outclasses by orders of magnitude any weightlifter without super strength. To lift weights in a competition where nobody but him has super strength, and win, is to cheat.

Though the limits of "human normal" are creeping upward every decade, Dash and Bob are not nearly in the same league. Competing with normal humans, for them, is cheating.

Storm Raven · Nov 10, 2009

Gunpowder said:
Spiderman's original motivation for crime fighting wasn't for power or glory but out of guilt for getting his uncle killed, who was in that situation because Parker was trying to cheat at a wrestling competition to make some money.

I have to question qhether using your strength to win a competition is actually cheating? We don't accuse people who are large in size with "cheating" because they excel at being linemen in football, or people who are tall with cheating when they excel in basketball. Why is it that using "superpowers" (which are effectively a literary construct) is cheating when done in competition? I could never compete with Michael Phelps in a swimming contest, even if he stopped working out for a decade, is it cheating for him to win if he races against me?

So Dash's problems weren't stemming from the man keeping him down but learning to live with his fellow human beings, not above them.

Learning to patronize them by letting them win? Parents often try to patronize their children when they are very small by letting them win at games. Is Dash a parent level figure to those poor benighted souls who aren't good enough to have "superpowers" who should be letting others win races? This seems like a very dangerous ideology to be espousing.

Storm Raven · Nov 10, 2009

Marius Delphus said:
I believe you've misconstrued what I said. I said Dash's goal is to cheat... by using his super speed in foot-races against other elementary school students who have no hope of competing fairly with him. That's pretty much the definition of cheating. Similarly, Bob would be cheating if he used his super strength in Olympic weightlifting.

Really? If I'm faster than you it is cheating for me to win a race against you?

The message of the film really is "be mediocre".

Marius Delphus · Nov 10, 2009

No, it isn't, and no, I disagree.

renau1g · Nov 10, 2009

Storm Raven said:
Learning to patronize them by letting them win? Parents often try to patronize their children when they are very small by letting them win at games. Is Dash a parent level figure to those poor benighted souls who aren't good enough to have "superpowers" who should be letting others win races? This seems like a very dangerous ideology to be espousing.

Very True. On the other hand, If I'm playing floor hockey (ministicks) with my 3 year old nephew, I can absolutely dominate him and make him feel bad. It's more fun for both of us if he has a good time and "wins" as neither of us are taking home the Stanley Cup or getting a $Million signing bonus as a result.

Maybe I misunderstood your sentence, but you are saying patronize in a negative context right?